Pathfinder 2's Sorcerer Goes "All In" On Bloodlines

Today's preview of the upcoming Pathfinder 2nd Edition is the sorcerer! The sorcerer has had a major redesign, with bloodline becoming even more important than it was in 1st Edition. Now, it determines which of four spell lists you get to use!

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Bloodlines are chosen at 1st level. Your bloodline then determines whether you use arcane, divine, primal, or occult spells. The demonic bloodline is previewed: divine spell list, a spell at each spell level, including fear, slow, disintegrate, and power word stun. Additionally you get signature skills, along with a number of bloodline powers.

Demonic
The demons of the Abyss debase all they touch, and one of your ancestors fell victim to their corruption. You're burdened with dark thoughts and the desire for destruction. This urge can be overcome if you choose to fight it, but the beauty of sin calls to you always.
Spell List divine (Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook 200)
Signature Skills Athletics, Deception, Intimidation, Religion
Granted Spells Cantrip: detect magic; 1st: fear; 2nd: resist energy; 3rd: slow; 4th: divine wrath; 5th: banishment; 6th: disintegrate; 7th: divine decree; 8th: power word stun; 9th: meteor swarm
Bloodline Powers Initial Power: glutton's jaws; Advanced Power: swamp of sloth (2); Greater Power: abyssal wrath (2)

Those bloodline powers are special spells which use Spell Points (SP equals your Charisma modifier per day). The Glutton's Jaws power is previewed in the blog.

What bloodlines are available? Here's the list!

• aberrant (occult)
• angelic (divine)
• demonic (divine)
• draconic (arcane)
• fey (primal)
• imperial (arcane)

As they have always been sorcerers are spontaneous casters. Same number of spell slots as a wizard, using Charisma for spell DCs and the like.

Sorcerers can also heighten spells spontaneously. Each day you choose two spells; you can cast heightened versions of those spells using any spell slot.

Sorcerer feats include:

• Overwhelming Spell (8th level) -- ignore 10 points of resistance to energy
• Dangerous Sorcery -- bonus damage equal to spell level
• Blood Magic (8th level) -- give temporary hit points if you are bleeding
• Wellspring Spell (20th level) -- cast 5th level or lower spells without expending spell slots

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[Charlaquin]

The main reasons they said they did this was:

1) In testing the Sorcerer was VASTLY more powerful than wizards when given unlimited heightening;

That makes sense, I’m not surprised that would be too much versatility in a classic Vancian system.

2) They noted much higher "analysis paralysis" from testers playing sorcerers who could heighten lots of spells.

Weird. 5e allows what amounts to spontaneous heightening for all classes, and I don’t see it causing “analysis paralysis” there. But, no matter. For me, reason 1 is reason enough not to let Sorcerers heighten as much as they want.

So, as a compromise, they struck on the "two spells each day" that they settled on. The idea of a feat to heighten ONE additional spell that was stuck as one choice (a 'signature spell' if you will) was floated in the forums, so we don't know if that will appear, or maybe later, or maybe not at all. I know I'd like to see more heightenable, perhaps with a class feat choice.

Still seems a little weird. I get that unlimited spontaneous heightening wasn’t a viable option, and no spontaneous heightening would be too restrictive. The idea of finding a compromise between those extremes makes sense, but the one they came up with looks pretty clunky on paper. Maybe it’s balanced, but it’s pretty inelegant.

I still stand by the suggestion of allowing Sorcerers to heighten spells by spending Spell Points. Feels elegant, balanced, and on-theme with the Class to me. But what do I know, I’m just theory crafting.

 

[jimtillman]

this may be the 1st time in pathfinder,d&d and d&d spinoff history that i might play a sorc before a wizard

 

[MoonSong]

That makes sense, I’m not surprised that would be too much versatility in a classic Vancian system.


Weird. 5e allows what amounts to spontaneous heightening for all classes, and I don’t see it causing “analysis paralysis” there. But, no matter. For me, reason 1 is reason enough not to let Sorcerers heighten as much as they want.


Still seems a little weird. I get that unlimited spontaneous heightening wasn’t a viable option, and no spontaneous heightening would be too restrictive. The idea of finding a compromise between those extremes makes sense, but the one they came up with looks pretty clunky on paper. Maybe it’s balanced, but it’s pretty inelegant.

I still stand by the suggestion of allowing Sorcerers to heighten spells by spending Spell Points. Feels elegant, balanced, and on-theme with the Class to me. But what do I know, I’m just theory crafting.

I think that it would lead to a bad situation like in 5e, where you end up casting less spells overall and unable to use any archetype features because metamagic eats away all of the available sorcery points and slots. Now heightening seems like something you'd need to do all the time, so it would eat away all of the spell points you need for other features like bloodline powers. In the meantime the wizard gets to use the fun toys and heighten. The worst of two worlds

 

[Henry]

From a personal perspective, i’ve Not found it a problem in 5e, and i’ve played a Druid up to 13th level. But i’ll Trust Paizo on it for the purpose of the play test, because i’m curious to see how it plays.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think that it would lead to a bad situation like in 5e, where you end up casting less spells overall and unable to use any archetype features because metamagic eats away all of the available sorcery points and slots. Now heightening seems like something you'd need to do all the time, so it would eat away all of the spell points you need for other features like bloodline powers. In the meantime the wizard gets to use the fun toys and heighten. The worst of two worlds

I mean, you could just give Sorcerers extra Spell Points to compensate, same way they give the Alchemist extra Resonance Points.

 

[MoonSong]

I mean, you could just give Sorcerers extra Spell Points to compensate, same way they give the Alchemist extra Resonance Points.

And then those extra points get swallowed by heighten too. Until they don't, which means there are more of them than needed to heighten essentially at-will, which means the system is just a round-about way around it. And then we have a sorcerer that is simultaneously overpowered in a power gamer's hands and unplayable by everybody else, and still boring.

 

[Charlaquin]

And then those extra points get swallowed by heighten too. Until they don't, which means there are more of them than needed to heighten essentially at-will, which means the system is just a round-about way around it. And then we have a sorcerer that is simultaneously overpowered in a power gamer's hands and unplayable by everybody else, and still boring.

I disagree. I think there's probably a sweet spot where you have enough spell points to comfortably heighten some spells, but not so many that you can freely heighten all spells. And I'd imagine that at such a sweet spot, heightening vs. using Spell Points to fuel other class abilities is a meaningful tradeoff. Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I think it'd at least be worth some play testing to figure out. I mean, I know that ship has probably sailed at this point, but I still think it's interesting theorycraft.

 

[TwoSix]

Weird. 5e allows what amounts to spontaneous heightening for all classes, and I don’t see it causing “analysis paralysis” there. But, no matter. For me, reason 1 is reason enough not to let Sorcerers heighten as much as they want.

If I had to guess, it's because upscaling in 5e is typically an option of last resort. A 1st level spell cast from a 5th level slot is usually much less effective than a natural 5th level spell. From the few examples I've seen in the playtest previews, heightened spells in PF2e are much closer to being at the intended power level for the spell slot.

It’s not “going back” for Paizo, who never left classic Vancian. It may be “going back” for folks who went from 3e or Pathfinder to 5e and are now considering switching to PF2.

Exactly what I meant, yes. Thanks.

 

[TwoSix]

I'd take more spells known with a little less flexibility over less spells known on any form. 5e's levels border on unplayable.

As someone who played a sorcerer over a 2 year campaign, I have to disagree. Making the best of a limited spell list is, to me, a more enjoyable exercise than having every utility spell I need already prepared.

 

[houser2112]

this may be the 1st time in pathfinder,d&d and d&d spinoff history that i might play a sorc before a wizard

Ooh, not me. I'm always hated paleovancian casting, and I immediately fell in love with the 3.0 sorcerer and have never looked back.

As someone who played a sorcerer over a 2 year campaign, I have to disagree. Making the best of a limited spell list is, to me, a more enjoyable exercise than having every utility spell I need already prepared.

For me, it's just the freedom to spam your attack spells when you need them instead of being stuck with knock as your only spell.

If I had to guess, it's because upscaling in 5e is typically an option of last resort. A 1st level spell cast from a 5th level slot is usually much less effective than a natural 5th level spell. From the few examples I've seen in the playtest previews, heightened spells in PF2e are much closer to being at the intended power level for the spell slot.

Upcasting is not always just adding more damage or whatever. They've collapsed some spell chains in this edition. Invisibility and Greater Invisibility are one spell now, as are all the Summon Monster spells. Wizards need only to take the lowest level in the chain, and prepare it in a higher slot to get the improved version. Sorcerers have to know the spell at the level they want to cast it, or designate it as one of their daily spontaneous heighten spells in order to access the intensified or improved version of the spell.