Pathfinder 2's Sorcerer Goes "All In" On Bloodlines

Today's preview of the upcoming Pathfinder 2nd Edition is the sorcerer! The sorcerer has had a major redesign, with bloodline becoming even more important than it was in 1st Edition. Now, it determines which of four spell lists you get to use!

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Bloodlines are chosen at 1st level. Your bloodline then determines whether you use arcane, divine, primal, or occult spells. The demonic bloodline is previewed: divine spell list, a spell at each spell level, including fear, slow, disintegrate, and power word stun. Additionally you get signature skills, along with a number of bloodline powers.

Demonic
The demons of the Abyss debase all they touch, and one of your ancestors fell victim to their corruption. You're burdened with dark thoughts and the desire for destruction. This urge can be overcome if you choose to fight it, but the beauty of sin calls to you always.
Spell List divine (Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook 200)
Signature Skills Athletics, Deception, Intimidation, Religion
Granted Spells Cantrip: detect magic; 1st: fear; 2nd: resist energy; 3rd: slow; 4th: divine wrath; 5th: banishment; 6th: disintegrate; 7th: divine decree; 8th: power word stun; 9th: meteor swarm
Bloodline Powers Initial Power: glutton's jaws; Advanced Power: swamp of sloth (2); Greater Power: abyssal wrath (2)

Those bloodline powers are special spells which use Spell Points (SP equals your Charisma modifier per day). The Glutton's Jaws power is previewed in the blog.

What bloodlines are available? Here's the list!

• aberrant (occult)
• angelic (divine)
• demonic (divine)
• draconic (arcane)
• fey (primal)
• imperial (arcane)

As they have always been sorcerers are spontaneous casters. Same number of spell slots as a wizard, using Charisma for spell DCs and the like.

Sorcerers can also heighten spells spontaneously. Each day you choose two spells; you can cast heightened versions of those spells using any spell slot.

Sorcerer feats include:

• Overwhelming Spell (8th level) -- ignore 10 points of resistance to energy
• Dangerous Sorcery -- bonus damage equal to spell level
• Blood Magic (8th level) -- give temporary hit points if you are bleeding
• Wellspring Spell (20th level) -- cast 5th level or lower spells without expending spell slots

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[MoonSong]

I disagree. I think there's probably a sweet spot where you have enough spell points to comfortably heighten some spells, but not so many that you can freely heighten all spells. And I'd imagine that at such a sweet spot, heightening vs. using Spell Points to fuel other class abilities is a meaningful tradeoff. Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I think it'd at least be worth some play testing to figure out. I mean, I know that ship has probably sailed at this point, but I still think it's interesting theorycraft.

If it is the sweet spot, anything less means you are less effective overall on a core function of your character. It might make for a meaningful trade-off, but it isn't a fun trade-off. (I'd argue that it isn't meaningful to begin with, as you are then trading core competency for flavorful fun, in a system where NOBODY else has to do it)

As someone who played a sorcerer over a 2 year campaign, I have to disagree. Making the best of a limited spell list is, to me, a more enjoyable exercise than having every utility spell I need already prepared.

I think you got me wrong. I wasn't saying I prefer a class over another -I don't like wizards, the whole archetype puts me off- it was a design preference. I'd rather have a sorcerer with a bit of a static spellcasting but plenty of choices for spells than a sorcerer with uber flexibility for each spell, but a shoestring budget of spells known.

 

[TwoSix]

I think you got me wrong. I wasn't saying I prefer a class over another -I don't like wizards, the whole archetype puts me off- it was a design preference. I'd rather have a sorcerer with a bit of a static spellcasting but plenty of choices for spells than a sorcerer with uber flexibility for each spell, but a shoestring budget of spells known.

I understand (it's pretty well known you don't like wizards but do like sorcerers!), I just have the opposite design preference.

 

[rmcoen]

How... inelegant. If wizards can heighten just by preparing in a higher level slot, sorcerers should be able to heighten by spontaneously casting from a higher level slot. By forcing them to swap the lower level version to get the higher level version, they lose the ability to cast the lower. Throwing them the "2 free per day" bone is fiddliness that sorcerers don't want; if they did, they'd be wizards instead.

Not that I can disagree with the inelegance of the rule, but here's what I see:

Wizard:
Level 1: Feather Fall, Sleep 1, Jump 1 (10 other spells in the spellbook)
Level 2: Invisibility, Magic Missile 2 (6 other spells in the spellbook)
Level 3: Fireball (2 other spells in the spellbook)

Sorcerer:
Level 1: Magic Missile (x), Jump (x), Bloodline Bonus
Level 2: Invisibility, Magic Missile (x), Jump (x)
Level 3: Fireball, Magic Missile (x), Jump (x), Bloodline Bonus

With "SpellName (x)" meaning "I know SpellName at *some level*, but I chose it for my daily heightening power".

So the Wizard heightened his Magic Missile "for free" to level 2, by preparing it as a level 2 spell. He will cast it at level 2 - not level 1, and not level 3. The Sorcerer knows Magic Missile, and is zen with it today. He can cast it at level 1, 2, or 3 today, as many times as he wants (within the limit of his spell slots). He could cast it with *all* his spell slots, if he wanted. [The wizard could do the same, but would have had to consciously prepare nothing but Magic Missile in every slot.]

 

[Charlaquin]

If it is the sweet spot, anything less means you are less effective overall on a core function of your character. It might make for a meaningful trade-off, but it isn't a fun trade-off. (I'd argue that it isn't meaningful to begin with, as you are then trading core competency for flavorful fun, in a system where NOBODY else has to do it).

If you’re needing to trade core competency for flavorful fun, then you’re not at the sweet spot.

Like, let’s assume that by level X, a wizard has Y spell points and can reliably Heighten Z spells. Couldn’t you just give the Sorcerer Y+Z spell points at level X? Then it wouldn’t be core competency you were trading. You’d be trading competency in one area for competency in another. You have the choice between heightening just as much as the wizard does and having the same number of spell points left, or heightening even more at the cost of some non-slotted spells, or casting more non-spotted spells at the cost of some spell height. That all seems like fun and interesting decision making to me.

 

[houser2112]

Not that I can disagree with the inelegance of the rule, but here's what I see:

Wizard:
Level 1: Feather Fall, Sleep 1, Jump 1 (10 other spells in the spellbook)
Level 2: Invisibility, Magic Missile 2 (6 other spells in the spellbook)
Level 3: Fireball (2 other spells in the spellbook)

Sorcerer:
Level 1: Magic Missile (x), Jump (x), Bloodline Bonus
Level 2: Invisibility, Magic Missile (x), Jump (x)
Level 3: Fireball, Magic Missile (x), Jump (x), Bloodline Bonus

With "SpellName (x)" meaning "I know SpellName at *some level*, but I chose it for my daily heightening power".

So the Wizard heightened his Magic Missile "for free" to level 2, by preparing it as a level 2 spell. He will cast it at level 2 - not level 1, and not level 3. The Sorcerer knows Magic Missile, and is zen with it today. He can cast it at level 1, 2, or 3 today, as many times as he wants (within the limit of his spell slots). He could cast it with *all* his spell slots, if he wanted. [The wizard could do the same, but would have had to consciously prepare nothing but Magic Missile in every slot.]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say by explaining this. I know how the rule works, I just don't like it. The sorcerer has very few spells he can know, so everything that limits his flexibility will be keenly felt. Limiting him to only 2 spells per day that he can spontaneously heighten is too little. He has to have burnt known slots to heighten more than that. Pointing out that the wizard has to specifically prepare his heightens is consistent with his core advantage/limitation; he trades situational versatility for overall versatility. The sorcerer makes the opposite trade. Limiting spontaneous heighten limits his core niche: situational versatility.

 

[rmcoen]

Fair enough houser. I thought you didn't see the versatility. But no, you see it; you are upset that this isn't baked into *all* the sorcerer's spells, that it is limited to just 2. I get you. I guess we need to see the slots and spells known to know how the Sorc will really compare to the Wiz. Seems like a quick and easy house rule for GM's to adjust to their taste.... but disappointing that we're already talking about a house rule, eh?

 

[MoonSong]

Fair enough houser. I thought you didn't see the versatility. But no, you see it; you are upset that this isn't baked into *all* the sorcerer's spells, that it is limited to just 2. I get you. I guess we need to see the slots and spells known to know how the Sorc will really compare to the Wiz. Seems like a quick and easy house rule for GM's to adjust to their taste.... but disappointing that we're already talking about a house rule, eh?

Most important, @houser2112 this is a playtest, not the finished product, things aren't set in stone yet. But it seems like something that could be fixed with a few more spells known.

 

[MoonSong]

If you’re needing to trade core competency for flavorful fun, then you’re not at the sweet spot.

Like, let’s assume that by level X, a wizard has Y spell points and can reliably Heighten Z spells. Couldn’t you just give the Sorcerer Y+Z spell points at level X? Then it wouldn’t be core competency you were trading. You’d be trading competency in one area for competency in another. You have the choice between heightening just as much as the wizard does and having the same number of spell points left, or heightening even more at the cost of some non-slotted spells, or casting more non-spotted spells at the cost of some spell height. That all seems like fun and interesting decision making to me.

I don't see how Z can be any number other than all slots of 2nd level an up. Which is back to At-will.

 

[houser2112]

Fair enough houser. I thought you didn't see the versatility. But no, you see it; you are upset that this isn't baked into *all* the sorcerer's spells, that it is limited to just 2. I get you. I guess we need to see the slots and spells known to know how the Sorc will really compare to the Wiz. Seems like a quick and easy house rule for GM's to adjust to their taste.... but disappointing that we're already talking about a house rule, eh?

Most important, houser2112 this is a playtest, not the finished product, things aren't set in stone yet. But it seems like something that could be fixed with a few more spells known.

It sure is, I'm just helping them to design the best game possible. They are claiming that opening up spontaneous heighten to all the sorcerer's spells leads to analysis-paralysis. That may be, but that is a player problem, not a rule problem.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't see how Z can be any number other than all slots of 2nd level an up. Which is back to At-will.

Do you expect wizards to spend all of their 2nd-and-above level spell slots heightening 1st level spells? Cause with only 3 slots per level per day, I kind of expect most of them to end up going to spells of their own level, with maybe a small handful of heightened spells of lower levels.