PC Giant (is this ECL 0 or +1 - or...?)

[Tonguez]

Giants of Hawaiki

Size: Large (8 - 10 ft)
Base Speed 40
Reach 10 ft
AC –2
Str +4, Dex -4 Con +2 Int -2
Dark Vision 60
Craft:Stonecraft +2.
Sense motive -2
Fort +4
Bonus Save against poisons +2
Special: Requires 12 rather than 8 hours sleep per night

Standing between 8 and 10 ft tall the giants of Hawaiki are a peaceful people found on a few of the larger mountainous islands. Giants are friendly and generous when encountered but tend mostly to keep to themselves in their secluded mountain villages only heading to the coast once each week to fish in the early morning before dawn.
Giants are known for their reverence of nature, especially that of the mountain forests, they rarely if ever cut down a tree and when harvesting food will always make sure to leave a potion for the following seasons. Giants acknowledge the gods but do not invoke them directly, druids are the most common religious leaders amongst the Giants, there are a few shaman but clerics are almost nonexistent.
Giant are known as master stone crafters and produce some of the best tools and weapons across the Great Ocean, these items are much sort after by others.
The large size of Giants makes them physically impressive and they are known for their strength and stamina, however their bulk also makes them less agile and flexible.
Giants are as clever as other races and capable of prodigious learning, however their thinking processes are a bit slower than the smaller races and they can miss subtle induendo appearing naive.
A giant will eat at a single sitting the same as a human does in one week. However as Giant metabolisms are also slower than that of smaller races the Giant then spends the next week digesting the food during which they can go without further meals (but still require water). Their slow metabolisms also means that giants require 12 rather than 8hours of sleep per day (this applies to giant sorcerers for spell recovery purposes)

 

[Technik4]

At least ECL +1.

Large size and reach are tremendous abilities. Im unsure whether the "AC -2" entry refers to the inherent -1 AC large creatures suffer, or if it is an extrapolation of the -4 Dex.

One important advantage you are missing is "Type: Giant" which confers with it inherent benefits, like immunity to Charm Person, Hold Person, Sleep, etc.

The +4 Str is not a slouchy ability either. I think comparing this to a Half-Ogre from Savage Species would be a good idea, since they appear to have many traits in common.

I would say that a "story restriction" like a slow metabolism, or needing to eat/sleep a lot should not balance raw mechanical stats like +4 Str and +2 Con.

You also might want to check out Monte Cook's recently previewed Giant race from Arcana Unearthed. It only begins at medium size but may take up to 3 racial levels, the 3rd which bestows Large Size, the others add ability bonuses.

Technik

 

[danzig138]

I would say that a "story restriction" like a slow metabolism, or needing to eat/sleep a lot should not balance raw mechanical stats like +4 Str and +2 Con.

I agree that story restrictions shouldn't be used to balance mechanical bonuses, but increased eating and sleeping requirements are not, IMO, story restrictions. Isn't there a rule about not getting enough sleep? If so, and the character fails to do so, he suffers a penalty. Also, the DMG has rules for starvation and dehydration. Since these have clearly defined mechanical effects, they shold qualify for balance, at least to some degree.

 

[Tonguez]

Isn't there a rule about not getting enough sleep? If so, and the character fails to do so, he suffers a penalty.

Yes danzig this is what I was thinking about when I put the extra sleep requirement in.
Besides the issue for Spellcasters mentioned there are also things like Fatigue -

From the SRD
Fatigued
Characters who are fatigued cannot run or charge and suffer an effective penalty of -2 to Strength and Dexterity. A fatigued character becomes exhausted by doing something else that would normally cause fatigue. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.

(so thats a potential - 6 to Dex if the giant doesn't get 12 hours rest and only +2 to Str)

and don't forget

Helpless
... sleeping...characters are helpless. Enemies can make advantageous attacks against helpless characters, or even deliver a usually lethal coup de grace.
A melee attack against a helpless character is at a +4 bonus on the attack roll (equivalent to attacking a prone target). A ranged attack gets no special bonus. A helpless defender can't use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC was -5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him).

Technik4

yeah I was thinking it might be ECL +1 because of the Reach, and I realise that the +4 Str is a major benefit (potential Str of 22 (+6)) thats not really a problem so I might tend to +1...

The AC -2 refers to the penalty for being Large

As to the Type: Giant I deliberately avoided putting this in so that the PCs would NOT get those advantages - so I may ned to specify that these giants are Large Humanoids

 

[XCorvis]

I'd say ECL +2 at least.

Large size has tremendous combat benefits, and +4 strength is quite strong.

Is that -2 to AC due to their size and dex penalty? If so, remove it. Remove everything that isn't an explicit bonus or penalty, or at least note where the bonus comes from.

If you want to drop the ECL, you either need to make some heavy ability penalties or some major drawbacks like "has issues with iron".

 

[Aaron2]

Have you seen Monte Cook's giant?

http://www.montecook.com/stuff.html


Its ECL 0 but it starts out as medium-sized. There is a three level giant class that eventually make the giant large. I still think its a little overpowered, but not by much (I would have used 8 sided hit die).

Having monster classes is probably the easiest way to go.


Aaron

 

[Tonguez]

Savage Species Half-Ogre
+6 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Large: -1 AC, -1 attack rolls, 10 foot reach
Speed: 30
Darkvision 60
+4 natural armor
Treated as giants (can use giant weapons and racially specific magic items useable only by giants)
Auto Lang: Giant and Common
Bonus Lang: Draconic, Gnoll, Goblin, Orc, and Abyssal.
Fav Class: Barbarian
Level Adjustment: +1.

So for ECL+1 the Half-Ogre gets Str+6, Dex-2, Natural armour +4 and Giant type

Compared to my Giant Str +4, Dex -4, Fort +4 and type Humanoid

I think the skill adjustments and poison save in my giant is balanced by the Sleep and double rations requirements and so based on the Half-Ogre I'm sticking with a Level Adjustment of +1

Thanks everyone for your input...

 

[Technik4]

(Sigh)

The designer of that half-ogre himself said it probably should have been an ECL +2.

If you design something looking at the highest-end possible, chances are you will have more difficulty with abuse after designing it. Meaning, Half-Ogre is a bad bar to set next to your Giant. Try using Monte Cook's Giant as a guide, he is a professional designer and he even designed a giant! I would look to base it off an "improved" orc as well: +4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha darkvision, light sensitivity.

Technik

 

[Tonguez]

Okay Montes Giant at ECL +1
Str+3 Dex–2 Wis +1
Giant Type
Medium size
Fort +2.
Skill Points (2+ Intelligence bonus) × 4

Diplomacy and Sense Motive +2 skill checks.
ALL Craft skill checks+2.

So my giant has Str +4 but also Dex -4 and those extra Sleep/Food/Water requirements

I'd say overall the stat adjustments on my giant are comparable to both Montes and the Orc stats (and imho a Dex -4 penalty is significant due to the number of Dex skills and comparable to the Str+4.)

The major benefit my giant gets is Large Size (and thus reach)
however it is also Humanoid Type and thus not able to take advantage of giant traits (which may or may not balance Large size). I'll also drop the poison save bonus

Overall I'd say it might be high +1 but still....