Perception clarification

[deleteme123456]

This has bothered me too. Secret doors are easy because my group will take the time to search and DMG says give them the value at +20. Traps are harder. My group tends to approach each room extremely cautiously, making perception checks as they go (actually they sit back and wait for the rogue, who is one of the 3 characters with high perception, including the Wizard who took skill training in it, and the cleric who is just leeching his high wismod). He'll roll active checks, and he's fine taking however long in wall time (which still isn't more than 1-2 minutes in game time) until he rolls well enough that he's convinced he sees everything. This makes traps obnoxiously hard to use as a DM. I'll probably just up the DCs on traps to above even the take 20 value, and then give a +5 or +10 circumstance bonus after one goes off. Another possibility is to use a stealth check for the trap, with something like 10 + half level + d20. Maybe a penalty for size if the trap is more than one square. That should generally put it out of passive range, and a good roll can keep it completley out of active range, which I'm OK with. I'll also mess with monsters attacking the PCs earlier, but this often means the monsters aren't taking advantage of the terrain, which is one of their big advantages.

Oh, and offhand the one time when I would not use Active Perc Roll < 10 => 10 is a skill challenge.

 

[Kordeth]

This has bothered me too. Secret doors are easy because my group will take the time to search and DMG says give them the value at +20. Traps are harder. My group tends to approach each room extremely cautiously, making perception checks as they go (actually they sit back and wait for the rogue, who is one of the 3 characters with high perception, including the Wizard who took skill training in it, and the cleric who is just leeching his high wismod). He'll roll active checks, and he's fine taking however long in wall time (which still isn't more than 1-2 minutes in game time) until he rolls well enough that he's convinced he sees everything. This makes traps obnoxiously hard to use as a DM. I'll probably just up the DCs on traps to above even the take 20 value, and then give a +5 or +10 circumstance bonus after one goes off. Another possibility is to use a stealth check for the trap, with something like 10 + half level + d20. Maybe a penalty for size if the trap is more than one square. That should generally put it out of passive range, and a good roll can keep it completley out of active range, which I'm OK with. I'll also mess with monsters attacking the PCs earlier, but this often means the monsters aren't taking advantage of the terrain, which is one of their big advantages.

Oh, and offhand the one time when I would not use Active Perc Roll < 10 => 10 is a skill challenge.

Bear in mind two things:

1) This tactic only works if you let it. It's hard to spend ten minutes searching a room when the dark wizard Marzubul is going to complete his ritual to open a portal to the Far Realms, or when the hobgoblins in the next room are bashing down the door. Even if you don't artificially enforce a time limit, every minute the PCs spend combing for traps and treasures is another minute the monsters down the hall are setting up barricades, digging in, and readying a nasty ambush.

2) Traps in 4E aren't designed to be "falling block of stone in an empty corridor" style traps. They're supposed to show up as part of an encounter with monsters, terrain hazards, and similar challenges--which further makes spending ten minutes searching for them more difficult.

 

[burntgerbil]

I wanted to add that our group has the DM roll perception checks for the PC's so we avoid the "I search the same 5 foot area of wall for half an hour until I roll high enough". Some of the posters sound like they roll their own perception - we have found that we prefer the DM to do it.

 

[Kordeth]

I wanted to add that our group has the DM roll perception checks for the PC's so we avoid the "I search the same 5 foot area of wall for half an hour until I roll high enough". Some of the posters sound like they roll their own perception - we have found that we prefer the DM to do it.

This reminds me, I forgot to mention: in 4E you can't do this anyway. Check out the Failure line for Perception: You can't try again until circumstances change. No combing the same five-foot square over and over and over.

 

[Caliban]

Perception doesn't necessarily spot secret doors or traps at 10 squares - if it something the DM decides that you need to Search (most things hidden on purpose - such as traps and secret doors - would fall into this category) for you can only find it if it's in the adjacent square. It's the last sub-heading in the Perception skill.

 

[deleteme123456]

Traps in 4E aren't designed to be "falling block of stone in an empty corridor" style traps. They're supposed to show up as part of an encounter with monsters, terrain hazards, and similar challenges--which further makes spending ten minutes searching for them more difficult.

A pit trap is not very exciting if the PCs notice it. Other traps might still be a threat even if noticed, but some traps rely on being hidden. But I will consider what PHB 187 has to say about all this...

EDIT: So I reviewed PHB 186 and 187. This is what I've come up with (I=DM. you=PC). Thoughts? Comments?

In general, you can go into the next room carefully if you must, searching for traps in a small area, and I'll use your passive perception and one optional perception roll (ignored if less than 10) (see also PHB 186 and errata: Minor action / No retry). Each set of nine squares occupies one minute of game time to search thoroughly enough to detect traps or hidden creatures. The minor action to detect a stealthed creature applies after you know for a fact there is a creature there and you saw him slink around the corner or something: you're looking for that particular creature (in cases where there are multiple creatures hidden, I'll probably allow you to specify a direction or something, although I expect this to be fairly rare). If you're searching for traps after combat starts, I'll use a standard action active perception (roll required, 1-9 counts) to search the 9 squares surrounding you.

 

[pskought]

This reminds me, I forgot to mention: in 4E you can't do this anyway. Check out the Failure line for Perception: You can't try again until circumstances change. No combing the same five-foot square over and over and over.

Wouldn't this interact with Passive Perception? What I mean to say is if you walked past a secret door in an alcove and your Passive Perception didn't pick up on it, would you actually be able to go back and roll to find it?

The primary problem I have with Passive Perception is that I feel like it eliminates DM design space. Building a campaign, you know the Passive Checks of your PCs, so you can effectively flag all your traps/secret doors/what not as either Visible Damage or Hidden Damage and call it a day.