Perform and Bardic Music

[Li Shenron]

From a discussion in an italian D&D website:

what's the point for a Bard to use instruments instead of voice only for Bardic Music?

It seems to me that it's totally free for a Bard to use any form of Perform for Bardic Music, so why using instruments (which clearly require you to have your hands - usually both - occupied)? Some forms of BMusic require concentration, but the ones who don't will let you fight in the meantime for example, but you can't if you use an instrument.

The only advantages I can see in instruments are 1) they can be masterwork and give +2 to the check and 2) instruments from S&S give you extra bonuses in some of the BM forms. But not only they keep your hands ties, they also cost quite a lot and in 3.5 you need to buy separate skills for separate instruments types (winds, strings...). Very expensive.

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Another issue I have is with Perform(Dance). It looks like it's the only Perform that doesn't produce sound - or at least it's not the point of the performance - so can you use it for Bardic Music or not? If the BM effect requires the target to HEAR you I'd say you can't, but if it doesn't then why not?

 

[shilsen]

From a discussion in an italian D&D website:

what's the point for a Bard to use instruments instead of voice only for Bardic Music??

From a mechanical standpoint, very few, and you've already noted them. From a roleplaying standpoint, it depends on the character.

Another issue I have is with Perform(Dance). It looks like it's the only Perform that doesn't produce sound - or at least it's not the point of the performance - so can you use it for Bardic Music or not? If the BM effect requires the target to HEAR you I'd say you can't, but if it doesn't then why not?

The description of the bardic music ability continually refers to a bard using "his song or poetics" and to "singing or playing instruments", and the more detailed list of activities does not list dancing. I wouldn't allow Perform (Dance) to be used for bardic music purposes, or any other silent type of performance (mime, etc.).

 

[Christian]

Concur. One of the balancing factors of the bard class is how they're generally crippled by silence spells. They can't even use the 'Silent Spell' metamagic feat ...

On the other hand, it might be worth upsetting the balance just to have a mime character. "What the heck's he doing?" "Um, I think he's trying to inspire courage." "Great. HEY, YOU! GET BACK IN YOUR INVISIBLE BOX BEFORE I'M INSPIRED TO BEAT IN YOUR WORTHLESS SKULL!"

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Concur. One of the balancing factors of the bard class is how they're generally crippled by silence spells.

Yeah, I can see that as a balancing factor. That and the fact that they only get six levels of spells. That's the biggie. *grumble* *grumble*

There's no mechanical reason for a bard to have any other Perform type (in 3.5) other than (Sing). Moreover, bards who want to diversify actually take a mechanical hit, because they're giving up skill points for that RP diversity.

Aside from the minor bonuses mentioned, one other small benefit of alternate Perform skills, though, is access to certain magical items. The Lyre of Building and Pipes of the Sewers both require Perform checks with the appropriate Perform skill to be used.

Perform (Dance) doesn't work with bardic music. Only Perform types that can be heard. And really, it makes sense. If the fighter is doing battle with a hydra, he's not going to be able to turn his head away to watch the bard dancing a jig.

 

[The Spectrum Rider]

This is why we have the following House Rules IMC:

A bard must choose an instrument type for spellcasting: harp, or panpipes, or whatever. Singing/chanting is not an instrument type. If the bard attempts to cast a spell using something *other* than his chosen instrument type (a different instrument type, or singing/chanting), she must make a Perform check (appropriate to whatever she's using) vs. DC 7 + spell level, or lose the spell.

A bard gets a +2 competence bonus to Perform checks when using an instrument of her chosen type.

This puts more flavor into the bard's activities, and gives her some interesting choices to make. None of my bards have complained so far. (Admittedly, I also give them a loremaster secret every 5 levels.)

Opinions?

The Spectrum Rider

 

[Lord Pendragon]

This is why we have the following House Rules IMC:

A bard must choose an instrument type for spellcasting: harp, or panpipes, or whatever. Singing/chanting is not an instrument type. If the bard attempts to cast a spell using something *other* than his chosen instrument type (a different instrument type, or singing/chanting), she must make a Perform check (appropriate to whatever she's using) vs. DC 7 + spell level, or lose the spell.

A bard gets a +2 competence bonus to Perform checks when using an instrument of her chosen type.

This puts more flavor into the bard's activities, and gives her some interesting choices to make. None of my bards have complained so far. (Admittedly, I also give them a loremaster secret every 5 levels.)

Opinions?

The Spectrum Rider

I'm not sure I've got what you're doing straight. Basically, you're requiring a bard to use an instrument or sing when casting a spell...or they have to make a Perform check...?

If so, this seems like another added restriction. It would force bards to either use an instrument or risk losing their spells, and using an instrument would mean they can't fight at the same time during combat, without losing actions to pull out/put away the instrument.

As the bard is already underwhelming as it is, I'd be unhappy with this change. Well, unless the DM also (as you do) gave out loremaster secrets...

 

[BSF]

I think Spectrum Rider is saying that they allow you to cast spells while playing an instrument.

Mechanically, it is silly to put ranks into other Perform types if you are playing a Bard. Unless, you want to use one of the (few) magic instruments. Though, if your DM is using random treasure, the odds of actually ending up with one seem pretty dang low. As 3.5 was being released, I wrote a long post on my disappointment. What the heck, I might as well do a search for it and post the link in the off chance that somebody is actually interested in reading it.

Heh - It was a thread that Spectrum Rider started back in July (caused me to delurk) http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54780

In any event, the most compelling reason to take multiple types of perform is for the RP value. My Bard character has spent a lot of points on different types of perform. It is a suboptimal build, but I choose to do that so I can retain the flavor of the character.

 

[The Spectrum Rider]

***
I'm not sure I've got what you're doing straight. Basically, you're requiring a bard to use an instrument or sing when casting a spell...or they have to make a Perform check...?

If so, this seems like another added restriction. It would force bards to either use an instrument or risk losing their spells, and using an instrument would mean they can't fight at the same time during combat, without losing actions to pull out/put away the instrument.
***

The risk is there, but low. A 1st-level bard with 4 ranks of singing and a 14 Cha (pretty low for a bard) would have to roll a 1 to mess up spellcasting a 1st-level spell while singing. It just encourages the bard to take singing and another Perform skill. Most bards IMC sing their spells in combat and play them during less stressed times, and the chance of failure is just enough to make it interesting.

The +2 to Perform with the chosen instrument type helps with both mundane performances and such things as Countersong, and the Loremaster secrets are just gravy. As I said, none of my bards have objected. And they're a little better differentiated, without feeling like they're making suboptimal choices.

The Spectrum Rider

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The risk is there, but low. A 1st-level bard with 4 ranks of singing and a 14 Cha (pretty low for a bard) would have to roll a 1 to mess up spellcasting a 1st-level spell while singing. It just encourages the bard to take singing and another Perform skill. Most bards IMC sing their spells in combat and play them during less stressed times, and the chance of failure is just enough to make it interesting.

The +2 to Perform with the chosen instrument type helps with both mundane performances and such things as Countersong, and the Loremaster secrets are just gravy. As I said, none of my bards have objected. And they're a little better differentiated, without feeling like they're making suboptimal choices.

Okay, so I did get the idea.

I don't like it. But not really because of the idea itself (which isn't really very drastic,) but rather because of various beefs I have with the bard class itself. Namely:

* Why can the fighter be proficient with every weapon, but the bard not proficient with every instrument?

* If the 3.5 Bard is supposed to have more skill points (6 instead of 4) why is he then expected to sink several points into various types of Perform, making him mechanically worse-off than before?

I have a couple more, but these two are the two relevant to the discussion at hand. In a campaign I currently play in, I'm a 6th-level bard. After much discussion, my DM decided that for every skill point in Perform, I got three "Perform skill points" that could be spent in individual types. So for the cost of one skill point, I can max out three different categories of Perform.

It's a good compromise, and in all fairness the DM has also instigated a weapon proficiency rule that divides weapons into categories as well, with various melee classes getting proficiency only in a certain part of the whole. (But even this system falls slightly short, IMO, since the DM ruled that fighters still are proficient in every weapon. If the fighter can break realism with every weapon, why, oh why can't the bard break realism with instruments..?)

Okay, this post has been slightly disjointed, but hopefully makes at least some sort of sense.

 

[Stalker0]

IF you use song and silence, it gives different bonuses for using certain instruments.. I highly recommend it.