D&D 5E Persuade, Intimidate, and Deceive used vs. PCs

[JediGamemaster]

Because for one, the rules say a player determines what his or her character does, says, and thinks - not the DM. And two, the rules say the DM narrates the results of the adventurers' actions - not the player.

So, as I see it, the DM can describe the orc as trying to intimidate the PC with a vicious war cry, but the player says how the character responds.

there is 0 difference other then the words we use... I use the NPCs stats to show case how intimidating he is, you use your skill in flowery discriptions to try to get across to the player how intimidating he is... it is the same thing both of us are expressing how intimidating the orc is...

 

[iserith]

I have never been happier for my local player base then I have been in the last few weeks here...

I'm happy and grateful for all players. I have no issue with anyone in my games at all. You're welcome to join one in the future, if you like. I run one-shots for forum folk from time to time.

OK I will ignore the whole player knowledge thing for now and just invite you to reread the last page or so where I clearly showed and was understood by others that at no point have I EVER tried to control how a pc thinks or acts... so stop pretending that I do

If you're telling players that their characters are intimidated, then you're telling them how they think and act - intimidated. You're welcome in my view to describe the orc as roaring and brandishing its axe at my character in an attempt to intimidate me, but when you say my character is intimidated, you've crossed a line for me. I've already explained this several times upthread.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I don't remember it ever coming up back in 2e at all... but me and my friends where high end high school and low end college back then. As we got older though we had a real problem with someone (especially as we expaned into more and more power gamers) dumping stats then playing around them... Gee my half orc with a 7 cha knows exactly what to say to the king because I the player am good at that... and I know the spell cast with my 9 Int and no spellcraft or arana because I out of game read the books, mean while the kid next to me with 16 cha and Int both with ranks in diplomacy, arcana and spell craft but out of game little skill can't do that, but also isn't as good at the fights because all of your resources went to the one part of the game that will be rolled and you 'role play' the parts he spent on...

I'd let the stats influence things but try not to let the dice mods be the main determinant. Two players use the exact same words but one has a much higher CHA or skill I'd have the NPC react better to him and such, he'd get more information for example during the interaction. Tying saves to all the abilities helps avoid dump stats a bit. But player experience and skill should have a large impact on game play in a game like D&D. Since forever I've heard the argument that a game situation should more challenge the stats on the sheet, or how can a shy person play an outgoing character, etc. But that isn't how I'd prefer to approach it. Tables and wants from the game are different.

 

[iserith]

I guess when I'm sitting next to another player and he or she is demonstrating high player skill in the game, I don't sit there and grouse that he or she should be playing down to the characters' stats. Instead, I'm grateful that that player is on my team and look to learn something from him or her while we have fun playing together.

But like character/player knowledge, this is probably another topic altogether.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Metagame thinking is fine for the most part, everyone in my group for the most part has been playing and running D&D for a long time. Reading an adventure before we play it is beyond that though. though I don't rerun modules with the same group unless I did a lot of changes, what's the fun in knowing what is going to happen? To me the point should be to challenge the player and that includes what they know. Different thread though.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

I guess when I'm sitting next to another player and he or she is demonstrating high player skill in the game, I don't sit there and grouse that he or she should be playing down to the characters' stats. Instead, I'm grateful that that player is on my team and look to learn something from him or her while we have fun playing together.

But like character/player knowledge, this is probably another topic altogether.

I think like everything else in this thread it depends on the table... If I'm playing at the right table I might say "man we make a great team" but at a different table call the guy out as a cheater...there are many ways to play this game and if you are only playing one way you do yourself a disservice... sit at a table and play a complty different style, then try to run that...

 

[JediGamemaster]

If you're telling players that their characters are intimidated, then you're telling them how they think and act - intimidated. You're welcome in my view to describe the orc as roaring and brandishing its axe at my character in an attempt to intimidate me, but when you say my character is intimidated, you've crossed a line for me. I've already explained this several times upthread.

I have crossed no line by rolling that die and telling you that number that you didn't by describing him I took a different path to the same end and for gods sake STOP LIEING ABOUT ME TELLING PEOPLE HOW TO ACT!!!! I have told you repeatedly to stop I am asking one more time Please!!! Stop saying I tell my players how to act or what to do or what to think I DO NOT!!!

I guess when I'm sitting next to another player and he or she is demonstrating high player skill in the game, I don't sit there and grouse that he or she should be playing down to the characters' stats. Instead, I'm grateful that that player is on my team and look to learn something from him or her while we have fun playing together.

But like character/player knowledge, this is probably another topic altogether.

I love how you go through a whole song and dance about how you feel but then try to shut down the topic so you have the last word...

I think like everything else in this thread it depends on the table... If I'm playing at the right table I might say "man we make a great team" but at a different table call the guy out as a cheater...there are many ways to play this game and if you are only playing one way you do yourself a disservice... sit at a table and play a complty different style, then try to run that...

I do that all the time, and I 100% agree that when people say "That isn't how games should be run" without trying it they are doing the community a disserveice (because disinformation) and themselves (because they have no idea what they are missing)

 

[iserith]

I think like everything else in this thread it depends on the table... If I'm playing at the right table I might say "man we make a great team" but at a different table call the guy out as a cheater...there are many ways to play this game and if you are only playing one way you do yourself a disservice... sit at a table and play a complty different style, then try to run that...

I've played lots of different ways over the years, including the ways that some espouse in this thread. As the game has changed and new rules, tools, and techniques became available, I dropped what no longer served me or didn't quite work with the game in its current form. I didn't play D&D 3e the same way I played AD&D 2e. I don't play D&D 4e the same way I played D&D 3e. I don't play D&D 5e the same way I play D&D 4e.

What has never changed for me though is the recognition that this is a game and that getting more skillful at playing that game (as a player or DM) is a good goal to have.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'd let the stats influence things but try not to let the dice mods be the main determinant. Two players use the exact same words but one has a much higher CHA or skill I'd have the NPC react better to him and such, he'd get more information for example during the interaction.

yea we sometimes also let other people feed other character words... "Hey you have diplomacy but I have an idea what to say, have your character say XYZ"

Tying saves to all the abilities helps avoid dump stats a bit.

yup... sure does...

But player experience and skill should have a large impact on game play in a game like D&D. Since forever I've heard the argument that a game situation should more challenge the stats on the sheet, or how can a shy person play an outgoing character, etc. But that isn't how I'd prefer to approach it. Tables and wants from the game are different.

I sometimes run player challenges, but it depends on the players... over the years I've had a real life magican at my table (stage that is), 3 engineers (two chemical one mechanical) a physics teacher (High school level), and 2 history teachers (techncly 1 went into teaching and the other became an archivist but they had same degree) mixed with a few salesmen, and a dozen far less skilled people... to be fair we had to develop the game to challenge the sheet as much or more then the player

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I have crossed no line by rolling that die and telling you that number that you didn't by describing him I took a different path to the same end and for gods sake STOP LIEING ABOUT ME TELLING PEOPLE HOW TO ACT!!!! I have told you repeatedly to stop I am asking one more time Please!!! Stop saying I tell my players how to act or what to do or what to think I DO NOT!!!

I do wonder... is there anyone here who actually take agency away from there players and tells them how to act or what to think?