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D&D 5E Persuade, Intimidate, and Deceive used vs. PCs

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I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here, but to be clear I'm not referring to the mechanical "action" in the sense of actions, move, or action economy. I'm referring to the fictional action a character undertakes as described by the player. If I have described, for example, some seedy bar where something bad looks like it could happen any moment, a player may respond with "I retreat to the corner of the common room and take stock of the denizens, trying to get a sense of what bad things are happening here." That's an action the DM can adjudicate and what I prefer players have their characters do rather than ask questions of the DM.


Ok let me try another way then.

you say 'describe an action' instead of 'ask the DM a question'

so here is my question, what about things that are not actions...


before the hobgoblin 'dungon' we just did we were in a town where 1 PC was from... he is a dwarf Fighter (eldritch knigh)/Ranger... they caught a thief picking the pocket of our warlock... she was a little kid. one of the players said "Hey, doesn't he know who runs the thieves around here?" so I asked the player "Would you?" he thought for a moment then said "Yea probably" So then then the warlock player asked "hey is the girl just a set of stats or did you make a full character..." may answer way "Just ability scores and HP,"

then I came up with a NPC head of thieves guild and made it up and gave the info to the dwarf player, only then 5-8mins later did we get back in game...

eidt: notice that not one of those questions came with a skill check or an action... to be honest the game world was completely paused during the entire discussion.
 
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I have not created a strawman on this point. There are indeed people who say that they tell players that their characters are deceived, intimidated, or persuaded. Quite a few as I recall.
how many of those people have tried to explain that they do so in a way that doesn't take away the Players control?
 

Think of Iserith's games as a novel he is writing. He writes everything except for four-to-six characters, who have their own authors for their actions and dialogue. If he magically controls one of them, he writes them for the duration of the spell. Otherwise, their author writes that character.
It's odd, when you think of it that way, that an in-game event would change authorship duties like that.
 
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You are totally misreading my 'tone' unless you think my 'tone' is "hey, be more open minded and stop telling people they are doing things they openly tell you they are not."

all I read from you is that "X=Y there for no matter how much you say you dislike Y I am totally going to keep say you are doing Y and not read any of your examples or nuances" followed from a few attempts at "Rule X says this and rule Y says that but I think X trumps Y and there is nothing anyone will ever say that will make me think otherwise byt I will argue till my death if someont things the revers."

If you're telling a player his or her character is deceived, intimidated, or persuaded, then you are in my view telling a player how his or her character thinks or acts. I will not change my position on this because it is by a reasonable standard of interpretation true. You are free to disagree with me. You are free to play the game that way and more power to you. That's just not a game I'd like to play.

OK, but do you understand that if you describe an intimidation and you do a great description, you now leave it to a PC to decide how well it did...

I leave it to the players to decide how their characters respond. I'm not testing how great a job the NPC did mechanically. I find that to be unnecessary because there is no uncertainty as to how the PCs will react (i.e. the characters react as the players establish).

so you don't see a difference between "I got a 7" and "i got a 26" on a skill check for how well the character (PC or NPC) did? this is what I mean the character skill should inform the roleplay...

If the DC is 6, no. If the DC is 10, then one is a successful check and the other is a failed check. If it's an NPC trying to intimidate or persuade a PC, then I'm not rolling at all. (Deception might be rolled to set a DC for a PC's Insight check but this is a test of the PC's action, not the NPC's.)

Otherwise, no, no difference between a 7 or 26, though I'm not averse to a DM rolling simply to inform his or her descriptions. I just don't want to be told I'm deceived, intimidated, or persuaded.
 

I think that there are types of collaborative storytelling that may involve adding more constraints to players at times, even ones that temporarily impact their agency (aside from magic). If you have buy-in from the players for this type of game, it can work pretty well. But I don't think it is by any means always the best course of action.

Sure, it's just you wouldn't have my buy-in. This seems to bother some folks.

As an aside, I actually have some issues with treating role playing too much like collaborative fiction writing. I enjoy both practices but I think they vary in some key ways that mean it doesn't help to approach them the same. But as I said earlier, I want to avoid offering you unasked-for criticism. It's clear your style works great for your table. :)

I tend to look at it more as improvisational acting that produces a story. (For example, asking questions in improvisational acting is often seen as troublesome because, with some exception, it doesn't move the scene forward.) I can imagine it's easy to feel like the transcripts are reflective of collaborative fiction writing because, well, it's in written form.
 

But it's not self evident from outside the fiction. Instead, you are preferencing one mechanic over another based solely on your assumptions. That's what inconsistent: you haven't yet identified what is specifically different from a magical effect rather than the best con man in the world playing on a character's emotions. But for Bob the Vampire Lord, players have no choice but to like him after they failed their save. For Bob the Silver-Tongued, though, there's no such luck after he charms them with his diplomacy.

Equivocating the magical compulsion versus ordinary persuasion is about the same as arguing a very sharp, masterwork longsword should still do full damage to a thick-skinned creature that is resistant to slashing weapons. Sure, outside of the D&D lexicon it might make sense. Perhaps a non-magical, expertly crafted sword could overcome the resistance. But within the established 5e rules, that's typically not how it works. Could it work? Possibly, but without any consistent guidelines regarding the creation and maintenance of these extra sharp masterwork weapons, it comes down to a moment of DM fiat that could echo throughout the campaign.

Consider the following when comparing and adjudicating the effects of spells and social abilities:

Most spells and magical effects detailed within the rules are a known quantity requiring little adjudication on behalf of the DM whether they occur to PCs or NPCs . Players are usually keenly aware of their options and why they succeed or fail in these situations.

Social ability checks versus NPCs are more vague. They give the DM more leeway to adjudicate, but as a trustworthy arbiter that allows the players to act freely and put their characters' skills to use in myriad ways to avoid or overcome any obstacles or challenges, even if all the options are not explicit or obvious.

Using social ability checks versus PCs that force or heavily restrict PC (re)actions, the DM essentially becomes judge, jury, and executioner ("Your character does it because I say so.") Players are often left with little to no recourse and extremely limited options, possibly wondering if they had any agency in determining their current circumstances.

Much like the lack of rules for very sharp, masterwork swords, D&D isn't designed around precise adjudication of social interaction, especially as those rules relate to dictating player/character behavior.

Still, could a DM dictate or restrain player (re)actions simply based on opposing NPC social abilities? Sure. However, it requires an enormous amount of trust from the players. And even if the players are cooperative participants, the DM's choices will likely have huge ramifications within a campaign as the players make efforts to shore up their defenses against similar tactics or use the same measures against powerful NPCs.
 

If you're telling a player his or her character is deceived, intimidated, or persuaded, then you are in my view telling a player how his or her character thinks or acts. I will not change my position on this because it is by a reasonable standard of interpretation true. You are free to disagree with me. You are free to play the game that way and more power to you. That's just not a game I'd like to play.
You know what I'm getting sick of going around in this circle... you are free to say you don't like it, but saying something that is blatantly a lie (That I tell people how character's think and act) when I have given examples and actualy gone over many times (as others have) that the player is always in control... that is what you aren't getting. No one is taking control away...
 

Ok let me try another way then.

you say 'describe an action' instead of 'ask the DM a question'

so here is my question, what about things that are not actions...


before the hobgoblin 'dungon' we just did we were in a town where 1 PC was from... he is a dwarf Fighter (eldritch knigh)/Ranger... they caught a thief picking the pocket of our warlock... she was a little kid. one of the players said "Hey, doesn't he know who runs the thieves around here?" so I asked the player "Would you?" he thought for a moment then said "Yea probably" So then then the warlock player asked "hey is the girl just a set of stats or did you make a full character..." may answer way "Just ability scores and HP,"

then I came up with a NPC head of thieves guild and made it up and gave the info to the dwarf player, only then 5-8mins later did we get back in game...

eidt: notice that not one of those questions came with a skill check or an action... to be honest the game world was completely paused during the entire discussion.

Player 1: Hey, doesn't he know who runs the thieves around here?
DM: Why are you asking me? I'm not [dwarf fighter].
Player 1: "Hey [dwarf fighter], don't you know who runs the thieves around here?"
Player 2: "Yep. It's [NPC]."

or

Player 2: "Hmm, it's been a while since I've been home..." I try to recall who runs the local thieves' guild. I might know because I grew up here. (<-- action)
DM: It's Chuck Dagger, a thoroughly disreputable scoundrel who is said to run his crime organization, The Chiselers, from Old Town.

or

Player 2: "Hmm, it's been a while since I've been home..." I try to recall who runs the local thieves' guild. I might know because I grew up here. (<-- action)
DM: I think according to your background, you left town at an early age. So let's see a DC 10 Intelligence check. If you succeed, I'll tell you who it is and where you can find this person. If you fail, I'll tell you only who it is and it's on you to find his or her location, if you want.
Player 2: Okay. *rolls* 12. (<-- ability check)
DM: It's Chuck Dagger, a thoroughly disreputable scoundrel who is said to run his crime organization, The Chiselers, from Old Town.

This is how I would handle it.
 


You know what I'm getting sick of going around in this circle... you are free to say you don't like it, but saying something that is blatantly a lie (That I tell people how character's think and act) when I have given examples and actualy gone over many times (as others have) that the player is always in control... that is what you aren't getting. No one is taking control away...

I disagree that the player is in control in these situations where the DM is declaring the character deceived, intimidated, or persuaded. That is not going to change for me. Where do we go from here?
 

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