D&D 5E Persuasion - How powerful do you allow it to be?

F
The statement that I'm responding to said in effect, "No, we learn the character of the NPC from the result of the mechanics without respect to preexisting fiction..."

Was this bolded bit said or did you infer that (I don’t know, I’m asking)? If it was indeed said, basically forget everything I wrote. If not, that was why I posted.

I’ll read the rest of your post and respond this evening.
 
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Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
I disagree. I have always believed or been taught that the reason we need rules in an RPG is precisely to resolve situations where we don't have consensus. Since it is impossible to always have consensus about the direction a story is going in, we need agreed upon rules. The iconic example is two kids playing cops and robbers, who reach the impasse, "*Bang* I shot you!", "No you didn't, you missed.", and in doing so find that they need some sort of rule.

Ironically, I feel you go on to describe several other good reasons we need rules.

I come from an online free form background and am a life long theater geek (improvisational and scripted) where all we had was consensus. Some people may desire to have rules to resolve creative disputes, but I neither need or want them for that purpose. So much of the content of the fiction is decided through consensus in a typical roleplaying game even if someone is taking the lead that we do not have the ability to meaningfully collaborate there's really no point especially in areas where the fiction might not be clear. Like when we go to the dice I do not want it to be because we have differences over what should happen. I want it to be because we both want to find out what will happen. If there are legitimate creative differences no dice roll or deployment of game resources will resolve them.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Neither side has been painted bad, both sides have their faults and the PCs are just as confused which way to go.

This is IMO a fairly normal situation that arises in D&D play at any higher level than say a tournament module.

An assertion is being made that in some fashion D&D needs to have the direction that the play takes "curated" so that the DM has to just decide what happens. I flat refuse this description, and further to the extent that I could agree with this description (for some less obvious value of "curation" such as just term of art for fiat decision making) D&D no more depends on "curation" than any other game which has a single secret keeper and referee.

As a DM I often have a general sense of the sort of things that might happen, but often as not none of the things that I thought might happen come to pass. I really don't know where play is going to take us, and sometimes this includes play in as constrained of an environment as a dungeon. I could use railroading techniques to try to get what I want to happen to happen, but most of the time there is not actually anything I want to have happen enough to use those techniques and as I've previously written, a little of those techniques go a long way and it is a mark of good GMing to use them sparingly. The DM in D&D in a sense has no stake in the game, or at least his stakes in the game are low. He has no motivation to curate it. He's neither supposed to be preventing or creating TPKs, nor deciding what sort of story should happen. By creating a myth and a setting and demographics, he is constraining himself to only use very limited resources so that he has only limited in game resources to force anything to happen anyway. If play begins to go in a direction he didn't want, he has little reason to try to prevent it. Thus, the story that is created is not under his control. If the dice go bad and the bad guy goes down like a chump, that's just what happens. He ought not rescue the bad guy so that the fight is more satisfyingly dramatic. If on the other hand the PC's dice go cold, it's not up to him to cause everything to fail forward because that would make a better story. The PC's must deal with the failure as it is being dealt to him. The DM doesn't change the fiction to suit the story. He allows the story to evolve from the PC's actions and fortune. He plays NPCs as if he was a neutral referee, trying to avoid metagaming and acting only according to the NPC's preestablished motivations and abilities.

This is one of the least curated styles I'm aware of in any sense I would understand the word "curated". Yet I've never noted it for an inability to produce dramatic situations and complex moral delimmas or changes of viewpoint or motivation. All that will happen naturally in any suitably complex fiction where the PCs have limited information. I don't need mechanics to force the PCs to change sides. Things like "Oh my gosh, the polite neighbor whom I've had such cordial relations with is actually a necromancer performing dark experiments in his basement.", "Oh my gosh, the quest giver is actually working for team evil.", "Oh my gosh, this bandit we've been sent to kill is basically Robin Hood" happens all the time simply because the PC's have limited information and must make decisions in the face of limited information.

By contrast, any game without an established myth secret to and separate from the PC's, but which by social contract remains unchanged even if it is leading to a result the secret keeper didn't want, is inherently one which is heavily curated, since the secret keeper is unable to act without bias since the fiction is being created and introduced all the time. There are no notes to establish what is true created before play began and which obligate the keeper to adhere to the limited resources which were allocated when the keeper also had limited knowledge. In a game where fiction is established continuously, the keeper always introduces fiction in more or less perfect knowledge of the situation. Thus, anything but heavy curation is impossible. To make matters worse, many games of this sort openly exhort the keeper to introduce fiction precisely with the motive of making for a better story, which is simply alternative language for saying "the story the keeper wants". In my view, this is never balanced by sharing with the players any finite amount of narrative control, since the keepers narrative control is not only both infinite in fact, but in this structure infinite in practice.

I've attracted a bunch of people who are defending their preferred style of play in a larger sense from perceived slights, and I wish they wouldn't. All I'm asserting is that often the style of game that games encourage you to produce is very different than the style of game that they actually support. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with what is being called "curation" but I certainly don't agree with the claim this game requires curation and this game doesn't, and to the extent that I do I tend to reverse the perception - Narrativist games are defined by being high curation, hopefully but not always mitigated by mechanics or a table agreement to jointly share that curation. You are jointly curating a story. But, for example, one of the online DMs I admire - the now Ennie Award winning Seth Skorkowsky - plays his games, including games like Call of Cthulhu, with what I consider a fairly high level of curation relative to my normal practice. It's in no way a bad thing, and for the most part I tend to approve of his reasoning and have in the past done similar GM tricks to achieve results, maintain balance, and keep the story going forward - but on the other hand neither do I pretend that that is a low curation neutral referee stance toward the game either.

Regardless of what is meant by "curation" though, it is a very low curation stance to decide that since it was established in some fashion that this priestess was a virgin of the goddess of marital loyalty protecting some vow of chastity outside of marriage that the proposition to seduce her would be generally more difficult than usual, and even might be impossible at the current power level of the campaign. (Obviously, if your PC's are deities, then what is possible is a rather different question, but even for a deity this might be rather more difficult than usual.) How much force you have to assert to protect the story so that said priestess is only seduced in a situation which would not suspend disbelief is perhaps a matter of curation, but it's not a contradiction to have rules that make that difficult and also at the same time to have as a secret keeper relative disinterest over whether it occurs or not since neither outcome represents the story you didn't want or the story you wanted.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
This is IMO a fairly normal situation that arises in D&D play at any higher level than say a tournament module.

An assertion is being made that in some fashion D&D needs to have the direction that the play takes "curated" so that the DM has to just decide what happens. I flat refuse this description, and further to the extent that I could agree with this description (for some less obvious value of "curation" such as just term of art for fiat decision making) D&D no more depends on "curation" than any other game which has a single secret keeper and referee.

As a DM I often have a general sense of the sort of things that might happen, but often as not none of the things that I thought might happen come to pass. I really don't know where play is going to take us, and sometimes this includes play in as constrained of an environment as a dungeon. I could use railroading techniques to try to get what I want to happen to happen, but most of the time there is not actually anything I want to have happen enough to use those techniques and as I've previously written, a little of those techniques go a long way and it is a mark of good GMing to use them sparingly. The DM in D&D in a sense has no stake in the game, or at least his stakes in the game are low. He has no motivation to curate it. He's neither supposed to be preventing or creating TPKs, nor deciding what sort of story should happen. By creating a myth and a setting and demographics, he is constraining himself to only use very limited resources so that he has only limited in game resources to force anything to happen anyway. If play begins to go in a direction he didn't want, he has little reason to try to prevent it. Thus, the story that is created is not under his control. If the dice go bad and the bad guy goes down like a chump, that's just what happens. He ought not rescue the bad guy so that the fight is more satisfyingly dramatic. If on the other hand the PC's dice go cold, it's not up to him to cause everything to fail forward because that would make a better story. The PC's must deal with the failure as it is being dealt to him. The DM doesn't change the fiction to suit the story. He allows the story to evolve from the PC's actions and fortune. He plays NPCs as if he was a neutral referee, trying to avoid metagaming and acting only according to the NPC's preestablished motivations and abilities.

This is one of the least curated styles I'm aware of in any sense I would understand the word "curated". Yet I've never noted it for an inability to produce dramatic situations and complex moral delimmas or changes of viewpoint or motivation. All that will happen naturally in any suitably complex fiction where the PCs have limited information. I don't need mechanics to force the PCs to change sides. Things like "Oh my gosh, the polite neighbor whom I've had such cordial relations with is actually a necromancer performing dark experiments in his basement.", "Oh my gosh, the quest giver is actually working for team evil.", "Oh my gosh, this bandit we've been sent to kill is basically Robin Hood" happens all the time simply because the PC's have limited information and must make decisions in the face of limited information.

By contrast, any game without an established myth secret to and separate from the PC's, but which by social contract remains unchanged even if it is leading to a result the secret keeper didn't want, is inherently one which is heavily curated, since the secret keeper is unable to act without bias since the fiction is being created and introduced all the time. There are no notes to establish what is true created before play began and which obligate the keeper to adhere to the limited resources which were allocated when the keeper also had limited knowledge. In a game where fiction is established continuously, the keeper always introduces fiction in more or less perfect knowledge of the situation. Thus, anything but heavy curation is impossible. To make matters worse, many games of this sort openly exhort the keeper to introduce fiction precisely with the motive of making for a better story, which is simply alternative language for saying "the story the keeper wants". In my view, this is never balanced by sharing with the players any finite amount of narrative control, since the keepers narrative control is not only both infinite in fact, but in this structure infinite in practice.

I've attracted a bunch of people who are defending their preferred style of play in a larger sense from perceived slights, and I wish they wouldn't. All I'm asserting is that often the style of game that games encourage you to produce is very different than the style of game that they actually support. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with what is being called "curation" but I certainly don't agree with the claim this game requires curation and this game doesn't, and to the extent that I do I tend to reverse the perception - Narrativist games are defined by being high curation, hopefully but not always mitigated by mechanics or a table agreement to jointly share that curation. You are jointly curating a story. But, for example, one of the online DMs I admire - the now Ennie Award winning Seth Skorkowsky - plays his games, including games like Call of Cthulhu, with what I consider a fairly high level of curation relative to my normal practice. It's in no way a bad thing, and for the most part I tend to approve of his reasoning and have in the past done similar GM tricks to achieve results, maintain balance, and keep the story going forward - but on the other hand neither do I pretend that that is a low curation neutral referee stance toward the game either.

Regardless of what is meant by "curation" though, it is a very low curation stance to decide that since it was established in some fashion that this priestess was a virgin of the goddess of marital loyalty protecting some vow of chastity outside of marriage that the proposition to seduce her would be generally more difficult than usual, and even might be impossible at the current power level of the campaign. (Obviously, if your PC's are deities, then what is possible is a rather different question, but even for a deity this might be rather more difficult than usual.) How much force you have to assert to protect the story so that said priestess is only seduced in a situation which would not suspend disbelief is perhaps a matter of curation, but it's not a contradiction to have rules that make that difficult and also at the same time to have as a secret keeper relative disinterest over whether it occurs or not since neither outcome represents the story you didn't want or the story you wanted.
I'm on my phone and may reply more substatially later, but it's curious that it took less than 12 hours for you to go from telling me you didn't understand what I meant by curation to this diatribe about how you absolutely don't curate (you do, and I explained what I meant by curate in my previous post), all without a single post on the topic by anyone else. It seems you've invented a very nice argument to knock down, and well trammeled it is.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I explained what I meant by curate in my previous post

The only definition you gave is this one: "And note that curate means to act as a curator, which means you have the duty to preserve and care for a thing." This is a circular definition that gives me no concrete details, and I still don't know what the "thing" I'm supposed to be curating is (though my best guess is "story", since that is what a DM is supposed to be curating according to you). It appears to be some term of art, but I have presumed that since you have defined it by referencing itself that whatever the term of art is it can't be too divorced from its dictionary definition.

Backing up from your definition I see only a bunch of axiomatic assertions as evidence which I disagree with, both that they are evidence of the thing and that they are factual.

For example, even if I agreed with you that fiat rulings were an especial part of D&D (and I don't), it would not perforce follow that these decisions were being made for the purpose of curating a story.
Even if I agreed "DM decides" exists as a trump mechanism, I would not need to agree that D&D especially relies on it compared to any other game or that the heavy hand of the DM was the normal way to adjudicate D&D.
You say, "When I run D&D, there has to be some form of story already built..." you are asserting only something about how you play. I have seen D&D run on many occasions with very limited preparation. I don't necessarily agree with limited prep for any game system but it is a valid style of play and D&D can and often is ran that way. Moreover, even to the extent that D&D does encourage heavy preparation, it doesn't necessarily follow that that preparation constitutes a "story" much less that that story is actively curated in play in order to protect it.
You then say, "This is further reinforced by the fact that the mechanics of D&D do not do effective reinforcement of complications -- there's no built in play spiral." This may be true, but this is an argument that D&D doesn't have curation rather than one that shows that it does. Any sort of built in reinforcement of complications or built in play spiral indicates a system built to protect a certain sort of story. The absence of one is not proof that the system requires curation, but on the contrary evidence that the system doesn't consider curation an important thing for the GM to be doing.

But probably the most ludicrous evidence you offer is the claim: "So, the DM has to curate the story in some manner to ensure that prep is useful and that play proceeds in useful directions."

What? I mean, how in the heck have I been playing D&D for 30 plus years and been doing it so wrong, or at least so wrong by your standards. Sometimes I wish that as a DM I was validated in curating the story so that my preparation is useful as you imagine that it is. I don't know how many times I've done 10 or 20 hours of preparation, only for the player's to jump left rather than right or go off on some highly unexpected direction and then I'm spending the whole session improvising as my carefully crafted preparations become more and more irrelevant. I've built dungeons the PC's decide not to enter, and prepared a dungeon by the three clue rule in a mystery that the PC's decided to just burn down rather than investigate. I've had side plots neglected or abandoned more times than I can count, and PC's latch on to plots and plans of their own devising that I'd never anticipated. But so what? That's normal as I imagine many GMs will attest. That's expected. That's the way things normally work, or perhaps even should work because that means the players have agency. How many times have I said, "If you want to run a Sandbox, you have to prepare more material than you will actually use."? And even then, be prepared to improvise content on the fly because you'll never have enough content - the player's will always find the edges of the map and always go into the blank areas. I wish that I could guarantee that play always goes in useful directions, but at some point either you have to let the PC's fail or else they have no agency, so you let them hit dead ends, die, and generally ruin whatever story they had been producing with actions that no novelist would ever validate as useful to a story.

Whatever I'm curating in this manner it isn't "story", nor does it in any fashion look like the sort of thing that you say is baked in. It might be curating something (a setting?), although I must be a terrible curator considering the havoc I let the player's wreck on it. No museum curator would look at the wreckage they leave behind and hire me to protect his treasures, but that is because my treasures are not a story or even a setting.

But regardless, all your assertions about the absolute and objective nature of D&D, are just so many claims about how you see D&D, or how you run D&D. And even with respect to the rules of D&D, it's particularly tricky to say that anything is heavily baked in because D&D typically does not hard define it's own processes of play, and even if 4e and 5e tend to be more 'modern' with respect to defining those processes of play, at the same time (and this is especially true of 5e) the game intends to be accommodating to a very wide number of different styles.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I'm not sure this is going to be useful, but I'll try once more. It's just not a good sign that you're editing my posts so thoroughly -- this indicated someone more interested in winning than discussing.
The only definition you gave is this one: "And note that curate means to act as a curator, which means you have the duty to preserve and care for a thing." This is a circular definition that gives me no concrete details, and I still don't know what the "thing" I'm supposed to be curating is (though my best guess is "story", since that is what a DM is supposed to be curating according to you). It appears to be some term of art, but I have presumed that since you have defined it by referencing itself that whatever the term of art is it can't be too divorced from its dictionary definition.

Backing up from your definition I see only a bunch of axiomatic assertions as evidence which I disagree with, both that they are evidence of the thing and that they are factual.
Right, so I did define it, you just disagreed with that definition. This isn't a good sign for moving forward, as the definition I provided shouldn't be that controversial. I think what's happened here is that you've formed an opinion that I'm attacking 5e (or D&D in general) and not trying to state a true thing about how the game plays. A game, I remind you, that I run a weekly game for my close friends, so clearly not a system I dislike or have a problem with. However, actually understanding how the game works is critical to being able to avoid any potholes. Your choice to be belligerent rather than attempt to grasp what I am trying to convey is both par for the course and not a problem with me.

For example, even if I agreed with you that fiat rulings were an especial part of D&D (and I don't), it would not perforce follow that these decisions were being made for the purpose of curating a story.
Fiat rulings are not especial to D&D. This is a trivial statement. Fiat ruling are an inescapable part of D&D, though. It's baked directly into "rule zero" and into the methods of play in every edition.

Even if I agreed "DM decides" exists as a trump mechanism, I would not need to agree that D&D especially relies on it compared to any other game or that the heavy hand of the DM was the normal way to adjudicate D&D.
D&D is does not especially rely on "DM decides" as a resolution mechanic. It is, however, an inescapable part of D&D.

Okay, now that we've dispensed with the easy strawmen that I was saying that D&D uniquely has these qualities, can we discuss how D&D relies on these qualities as the baseline assumption of how the game works, and how this differs from other game that do not?

You say, "When I run D&D, there has to be some form of story already built..." you are asserting only something about how you play. I have seen D&D run on many occasions with very limited preparation. I don't necessarily agree with limited prep for any game system but it is a valid style of play and D&D can and often is ran that way. Moreover, even to the extent that D&D does encourage heavy preparation, it doesn't necessarily follow that that preparation constitutes a "story" much less that that story is actively curated in play in order to protect it.
Okay, this is a good point to be explicit by what I mean with "DM curation of story" and even "story." Story, in this case, encompasses both the backstory of play (secret and open), and the outcomes of play. The latter is an example of bad curation -- where the DM forces outcomes onto play. The former, the curation of what I'll go with calling the backstory, is absolutely critical to D&D play. The DM sets up all of the non-PC story elements and controls them and determines what's true about them. D&D play may involve player freedom to find out "how" that backstory will be navigated, but the players have no control as to "what" that backstory is. In effect, D&D is largely about navigating the DM's backstory and resolving whatever issues the DM placed there.

Curation of story does not mean the DM railroads outcomes. It means that the DM's job is to provide the backstory for everything to the players so that they can navigate it in play. The dungeon is backstory. The NPCs are backstory. If you ever say that it's the DM's job to figure out if this guard is bribeable based on what the DM's story for that guard is, you're discussing the DM's curation of story. Curation is important to D&D play because it's what provides the consistent (hopefully) backstory for the players to navigate. It's the challenges the players face. All of this is DM curation of story.

And, to hopefully halt the strawman, this kind of play is not unique to D&D. It's just required of it.

And, this contrasts with other styles of play, like Story Now, where there is no curation of play. Everything is generated in play, and the players have a great deal of authority over both the what and how of the story. And, there is no secret backstory, no single secret keeper as you put it earlier. This is a very different style of play, and requires a different way of thinking about how the game works than D&D.

You then say, "This is further reinforced by the fact that the mechanics of D&D do not do effective reinforcement of complications -- there's no built in play spiral." This may be true, but this is an argument that D&D doesn't have curation rather than one that shows that it does. Any sort of built in reinforcement of complications or built in play spiral indicates a system built to protect a certain sort of story. The absence of one is not proof that the system requires curation, but on the contrary evidence that the system doesn't consider curation an important thing for the GM to be doing.
No, it's a strong argument that D&D requires curation of story because the mechanics of play do not have a way of generating continuing story. The story must be continually provided by the DM. Take a dungeon as an example -- the DM has it drawn out, and stocked with traps, monsters, and treasure. If you're in room 3, the DM provides the story of the passages out, the sounds, the smells, etc. Moving to room 4 results in the DM providing the prepared backstory for that room -- or making it up on the fly, the real crux here is that the DM is the sole provider of the story that the players navigate. This form of DM provided story is the curation I'm discussing. The lack of mechanics that provide new story via outcomes is part and parcel of why D&D requires such curation.

But probably the most ludicrous evidence you offer is the claim: "So, the DM has to curate the story in some manner to ensure that prep is useful and that play proceeds in useful directions."

What? I mean, how in the heck have I been playing D&D for 30 plus years and been doing it so wrong, or at least so wrong by your standards. Sometimes I wish that as a DM I was validated in curating the story so that my preparation is useful as you imagine that it is. I don't know how many times I've done 10 or 20 hours of preparation, only for the player's to jump left rather than right or go off on some highly unexpected direction and then I'm spending the whole session improvising as my carefully crafted preparations become more and more irrelevant. I've built dungeons the PC's decide not to enter, and prepared a dungeon by the three clue rule in a mystery that the PC's decided to just burn down rather than investigate. I've had side plots neglected or abandoned more times than I can count, and PC's latch on to plots and plans of their own devising that I'd never anticipated. But so what? That's normal as I imagine many GMs will attest. That's expected. That's the way things normally work, or perhaps even should work because that means the players have agency. How many times have I said, "If you want to run a Sandbox, you have to prepare more material than you will actually use."? And even then, be prepared to improvise content on the fly because you'll never have enough content - the player's will always find the edges of the map and always go into the blank areas. I wish that I could guarantee that play always goes in useful directions, but at some point either you have to let the PC's fail or else they have no agency, so you let them hit dead ends, die, and generally ruin whatever story they had been producing with actions that no novelist would ever validate as useful to a story.
Again, you have a very narrow view and mistake the intent. You do provide the backstory. You do hold the secrets, and release them to the players when you deem it's appropriate to do so. You curate the story, making sure that it progresses and is supported and is fun. You do this by listening to your players, which is commendable, and providing a story that they enjoy, and that challenges both the player and the character, which is again commendable. But, make no mistake, you do this by curating the story so that it does this. You pick the monsters, the NPCs, the behind the scene plots that the players then navigate. Even in a sandbox campaign, you've at least sketched in the story so that the players can freely choose how they navigate it.

And, again, I RUN 5E weekly. My game has very few house rules that all deal with downtime and factions (it's a Sigil game). I absolutely curate my story. I curate it by listening to my players, picking up on their cues, and then building interesting arcs on those cues. Right now, they're running through a modified Forge of Fury with gnolls instead of goblins and an aboleth in the lake. I stocked that dungeon, I have secrets to expound, I placed the dessicated gnoll turned skum in a holding cell on the first level to foreshadow the aboleth. Etc, etc. All of these things are me curating the story. What will the outcome be? Well, hopefully the party will succeed in acquiring the item they're here for, but I don't know how they'll do it or what tactics they'll use or if they'll decided it's not worth it and go off into one of the other things they've shown interest in. But, regardless of how they navigate the story beats I've laid down, I will be there curating that story because there's no other mechanism for generating story in 5e.

Contrast this to my Blades in the Dark game, run with the same group. I do no prep. I don't think about play until we're playing. Everything generates in play, as part of the play cycle, or because a player has proposed it. Having run both, the difference in how they play is very apparent. I happen to enjoy both games.

Whatever I'm curating in this manner it isn't "story", nor does it in any fashion look like the sort of thing that you say is baked in. It might be curating something (a setting?), although I must be a terrible curator considering the havoc I let the player's wreck on it. No museum curator would look at the wreckage they leave behind and hire me to protect his treasures, but that is because my treasures are not a story or even a setting.
Well, cool. You're almost where I trying to go. Story isn't necessarily outcome, it's all the pieces necessary for that outcome. LotR isn't just a little person throws something into some lava. It's depth is all of the backstory, the world, the characters. This is all also story, and this is the part of the game the DM must curate in D&D. It's the DM's job to create it, to care for it, to present it in intriguing ways. What the players do with it isn't part of that curation.

Like the curator of an art exhibit, you have to put in a lot of work to make sure the art is displayed in the best way possible, but it's not your responsibility to dictate how the attendees wander through the exhibits (or, maybe it is, and we have a rational discussion of DM force, although I don't see that one going well given how this rather non-inflammatory curation point has been received).

But regardless, all your assertions about the absolute and objective nature of D&D, are just so many claims about how you see D&D, or how you run D&D. And even with respect to the rules of D&D, it's particularly tricky to say that anything is heavily baked in because D&D typically does not hard define it's own processes of play, and even if 4e and 5e tend to be more 'modern' with respect to defining those processes of play, at the same time (and this is especially true of 5e) the game intends to be accommodating to a very wide number of different styles.
This is a very myopic view. D&D works if you play it in the styles that D&D enables. That is a number of different styles, but they all have the DM as the creator of backstory, curator of story, and deciderer in chief of the game. So, yes, there are variations within the overarching play that D&D defines, but it's still select set of possible styles. This is well and good, though -- if you think a given system should be universal, odds are you've managed to fool yourself or you're just not terribly aware of what else is out there.

I will say, however, that many of your posts recently have clearly indicated that you do not well understand how narrative-style games, like FATE or PbtA, or games that use Story Now actually function. Given that you've clearly said that your experience with FATE is watching a game (or two?) and reading the rules, I don't find this odd. Especially since you seem very deeply mired in a myopic viewpoint that the style of play that suits D&D games is broad. It's popular, but that doesn't mean it's very broad. And as you've displayed no experience actually playing styles of game that differ strongly from D&D, you shouldn't hold forth with such certainty about how broadly accepting of different styles of play D&D is. I mean, this is a hugely popular board, one of many, that focuses on the discussion of playing D&D. In this, it hosts all editions and even Pathfinder games, and yet we all seem to pretty much grok how the game plays even if we have differences of opinion on specific points of play. That's not a sign of a broad set of playstyles.

AND THAT'S OKAY. D&D doesn't have to be everything, it just needs to be D&D and do that well. Which it does, to the tune of being the most popular RPG by a huge margin. None of what I've said above is meant to be negative of D&D. It is intended to be a critical analysis of how the D&D genre of games work, what they prioritize, and how they function at a core level. D&D is about the players navigating the DM's story notes. That what the mechanics support, that's what many official play products are (adventures, hello?), that's what we largely discuss around here, and that's what D&D does well. Arguing that this isn't so is denying the nose on your face.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
When I speak of curation it is not an accusation. I am in no means implying that you offer a fully curated experience or even circumvent the rules of the game nor am I implying that curation in the general sense leads to a poor experience. However language like basic storytelling, plot hooks, big reveals, missions that you send them on, and even backstory implies a degree of curation to me even if your players generally follow your lead. They are simply helping to curate the experience. Prepared material is a feature of some Story Now games including Sorcerer, Blades in the Dark, and Apocalypse World. It is also a feature of most strictly gamist play like Moldvay B/X which is definitely not curated. Nor am I implying that prepared details of the fiction even when it impacts resolution are signs of curation. For me curation starts when we start deciding or designing our prep with an eye towards how it should be engaged or to invoke a specific reaction.

When I GM I do not view it as my role to be a teller of stories. I would never get to experience the story as it unfolds if that were my aim. I try to have as little expectation of how players should engage with my prepared material as possible. I strive to be curious. I prep people, places, and motivations. Never events. I view it as my duty to provide opportunities for player characters to pursue their goals and engage in meaningful protagonism. I offer opportunities, but follow their lead. I suppose there is a level of curation in offering antagonism, but I strive to keep it honest and approach the fiction with curiosity. That's why GMing principles are so important to me. They help me stay disciplined so we can all find out what happens together.

I also wanted to broach another subject that seems to keep coming up in these threads. You seem to confuse player currencies that impact the fiction with Story Now play quite often. It is not the case that this is a general feature of Story Now play. Sorcerer, Apocalypse World, and Monsterhearts lack such currencies. Exalted, 5e, Mutants and Masterminds, and Pathfinder include such currencies. Also degree of correspondence to the fiction varies. In Masks for example Team corresponds to cohesiveness and is determined by fictional positioning. To use it you must declare how you are helping a team member. Stress in Blades in the Dark represents the strain of the crew members efforts and must be removed by engaging in their vice during downtime. Hero Points in Pathfinder and Inspiration in 5e have very little correspondence to the fiction and those hardly Story Now games.
 

pemerton

Legend
In the context of this thread I think the notion of GM "force" and the notion of GM "curation" are closely related if not identical. We are talking about the GM using his/her authorial authority to establish elements of the fiction, including outcomes.

Examples of play in which the GM establishes not only motivations but reactions of NPCs by sheer authorial power; or in which the players' understanding of the in-fiction social or political dynamics is acquired by dint of gradual GM reveals through his/her decisions about what NPCs say and how they react; seem to me to be paradigm examples of GM curation.
 

Celebrim

Legend
[MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION]: I'm just going to ignore a broad swath of this post and focus on what is useful. which is that you are finally offering a definition.

Okay, this is a good point to be explicit by what I mean with "DM curation of story" and even "story." Story, in this case, encompasses both the backstory of play (secret and open), and the outcomes of play. The latter is an example of bad curation -- where the DM forces outcomes onto play. The former, the curation of what I'll go with calling the backstory, is absolutely critical to D&D play. The DM sets up all of the non-PC story elements and controls them and determines what's true about them. D&D play may involve player freedom to find out "how" that backstory will be navigated, but the players have no control as to "what" that backstory is. In effect, D&D is largely about navigating the DM's backstory and resolving whatever issues the DM placed there.

Curation of story does not mean the DM railroads outcomes. It means that the DM's job is to provide the backstory for everything to the players so that they can navigate it in play. The dungeon is backstory. The NPCs are backstory. If you ever say that it's the DM's job to figure out if this guard is bribeable based on what the DM's story for that guard is, you're discussing the DM's curation of story. Curation is important to D&D play because it's what provides the consistent (hopefully) backstory for the players to navigate. It's the challenges the players face. All of this is DM curation of story.

Ok, so by "curation of story" you seem to be referring to the creation of backstory and then referring to it during play. Or in other words, this seems to be a term of art closely related to the concept of "No Myth". Games that have a lot "myth" rely heavily on "curation of story" by the DM because someone had to create that story, where as a game that is explicitly against having a preexisting "myth" in its defined processes of play doesn't rely on "curation of story" (at least, by the DM specifically).

Ok, so I now can see the disconnect. When you say "curation of story", my thought is toward what is sometimes called "forestory" in play - what actually happens in play as opposed to the backstory. What you seem to actually mean most is "curation of backstory", the creation of setting, NPCs, and so forth before play begins and that D&D is poorly suited to "No Myth" style play.

I can concur to you that D&D is poorly suited to "No Myth" style play. While I have seen D&D played in this manner, I've never actually seen it work well, so to that extent I'm willing to agree with that D&D doesn't suit that style of play.

But the thing is, I'm not sure I'm convinced FATE or PbtA are good examples of "No Myth" or "Story Now" games, especially if you are defining "Story Now" as having no "curation of play" (or at least no centralized curation of play). (And now might be a good time to get exactly what you mean by "Story Now".) A lot of what FATE does to set up its initial state reminds me very much of a session 0 stuff I might do for D&D where we decide as a group what sort of game we are interested in, and then the GM works with them to create a backstory both as individuals and with hooks that suggest how the party comes together. At this point in "session 0" there tends to be a lot of shared "curation of story" as players throw out ideas for what they want there character to be like, and there tends to be a ton of bleed into the setting as the players create families, foils, antagonists, and past history for themselves - some of which of importance, like a civil war I previously didn't have on my timeline. And a lot of it wants play to be like reminds me very much of what direction I might take if I was running D&D for just 2-3 players, where I can take those backstory hooks and make them the central focus of play because since we only have 2-3 players, then we can focus spotlight pretty much entirely on a PC's character arc, internal development, and personal antagonists (or personal demons). Where as if I'm running D&D for 6-8 players, you just can't do that because if you drill down to that level too many people are left out of play (or at least out of the center of play) for too long, so with those larger groups play tends to be about some group goal everyone can work on jointly (often one driven by story events I create as a GM to drive play forward, or what you call curation).

And, there is no secret backstory, no single secret keeper as you put it earlier.

Yes, but does that statement really apply to FATE or even most PbtA games? I've seen some games that definitely applies to (often with some sort of revolving active phase where players take turns driving the story), but I don't get that impression of FATE which seems to have a GM, curation of story, a secret keeper, and all the rest. So while there definitely are games that I would agree differ in category from D&D, FATE seems to differ mostly by degree. It's a "sorta of Story Now" game with "lighter Curation of Story" and so forth. And when I've watched people play it, that's how it seemed to play.

(I should say that I'm reading through the FATE rulebook again, and oh golly do I hate it, but I'll try to avoid getting off track by ranting about everything I hate about it.)

For now, can you show me how FATE meets what appears to be your definition of a Story Now game. For example, if I read text like: "As the gamemaster, it’s your job to decide how everyone and everything else in the world responds to what the PCs do, as well as what the PCs’ environment is like. If a PC botches a roll, you’re the one who gets to decide the consequences. When an NPC attempts to assassinate a PC’s friend, you’re the one who gets to decide how they go about it. When the PCs stroll up to a food vendor in a market, you get to decide what kind of day the vendor is having, what kind of personality he or she has, what’s on sale that day. You determine the weather when the PCs pull up to that dark cave." This sounds a whole lot like what I normally do in D&D, and while a lot of this may be improvised during a session so would a lot of this in a D&D game. So if I'm doing this in a D&D game and it's "curation of story" why isn't it "curation of story" in a FATE game?

And in particular, back to my point in the first place, if I'm deciding what sort of personality that the NPC has, and what kind of response and actions that the NPCs take, and I'm setting the difficulty of the obstacles to do something like persuade the NPC to cooperate, how is that really all that different from what I'm doing in D&D. How am I not getting it here and getting it wrong?

PS: "Finally, you’re responsible for making all of the stuff that the PCs encounter and react to in the game. That not only includes NPCs with skills and aspects, but it also includes the aspects on scenes, environments, and objects, as well as the dilemmas and challenges that make up a scenario of Fate. You provide the prompts that give your group a reason to play this game to begin with—what problems they face, what issues they have to resolve, whom they’re opposing, and what they’ll have to go through in order to win the day. " - what FATE says about GMing. Isn't that curation of story?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
For now, can you show me how FATE meets what appears to be your definition of a Story Now game. For example, if I read text like: "As the gamemaster, it’s your job to decide how everyone and everything else in the world responds to what the PCs do, as well as what the PCs’ environment is like. If a PC botches a roll, you’re the one who gets to decide the consequences. When an NPC attempts to assassinate a PC’s friend, you’re the one who gets to decide how they go about it. When the PCs stroll up to a food vendor in a market, you get to decide what kind of day the vendor is having, what kind of personality he or she has, what’s on sale that day. You determine the weather when the PCs pull up to that dark cave." This sounds a whole lot like what I normally do in D&D, and while a lot of this may be improvised during a session so would a lot of this in a D&D game. So if I'm doing this in a D&D game and it's "curation of story" why isn't it "curation of story" in a FATE game?

As an outsider to this conversation I'll take a stab at it. I've not read the FATE rules, so I'm just going by what you've quoted here.

"As the gamemaster, it’s your job to decide how everyone and everything else in the world responds to what the PCs do, as well as what the PCs’ environment is like."

As this is written, this doesn't require pre-planning at all. A player decides to go into a bar, effectively creating the bar on the spot. The DM then describes the environment of the bar. Another player decides to go to the local public pool. The DM describes that environment in response, populating it with NPCs and how those NPCs respond to the PC.

"If a PC botches a roll, you’re the one who gets to decide the consequences."

The PC at the pool decides to dive from the highest diving board to impress the ladies and botches the roll. The DM can decided that he belly flops, the ladies laugh at him, or even that he fails to jump, landing the board in a compromising and very painful position.

"When the PCs stroll up to a food vendor in a market, you get to decide what kind of day the vendor is having, what kind of personality he or she has, what’s on sale that day. You determine the weather when the PCs pull up to that dark cave."

These are also reactive decision b the DM. The PC is going up to a food vendor who may or may not have existed a few moments prior. The DM is providing the environment, which would include the vendor's inventory and whether he's short tempered, nice, talkative, quiet, etc.

Nothing listed requires pre-planning, which is what D&D generally involves. In D&D, the DM would have set up the town in advance, at least to some degree. The bar would be known before the PCs ever decide to go there, if they even decide to go there. The same with the local pool or street vendor. It's the pre-planning portion that makes the difference, which to me is effectively no difference. The PC can't tell whether the vendor was there because the DM placed it 2 days before the game, or on the spot when the PC walked into town.

I play the game to inhabit the PC and react as he would to his environment, so I really don't care if the DM used improv of pre-planning to place X in front of me. I'm going to be reacting to X the same way regardless. Some people, though, have a lot of trouble with the DM planning anything out. I don't get it, but I accept that they prefer it that way.
 

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