PHB 2 power creep

[phil500]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I just got the phb 2 and WOW, i feel my phb 1 builds are at a total disadvantage. Im not talking about the mastery or other fixes, but the classes.

I went to the shaman right away, and couldnt believe how much better a shaman can be than a cleric. This is mostly since clerics have to choose to either ignore half their powers or suffer from serious MAD and have to pay for a weapon and an implement. More generally, most the classes in phb1 need 2 stats to hit and a 3rd for random bonuses. All the classes in phb2 seem to only need 1 stat to hit.

As for the powers, I havent really has time to pore over them but the invoker seems better than the wizard.

I took a look at the invoker and divine bolts hit me: this is what magic missile should have been. two hits of 1d6+mod damage to either one or 2 targets? thats better than twin strike. Vanguards lightning is strictly better than scorching burst. However, grasping shards is the real star, as it doubles as a minion nuker and slower, ie makes scorching burst and ray of frost obsolete. With divine bolts and grasping shards an invoker wont miss only having 2 at wills. I remember wizards were often human because they wanted the 3rd.

Anyone else see some power creep there, or is it cause I just looked at these certain classes?

 

[Herschel]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I just got the phb 2 and WOW, i feel my phb 1 builds are at a total disadvantage. Im not talking about the mastery or other fixes, but the classes.

I went to the shaman right away, and couldnt believe how much better a shaman can be than a cleric. ..

What are you talking about? The Shaman's AC is way to low to be useful. It's the suckiest suck that's ever sucked suck.

I guess the Shaman has now run the overreaction cycle.

 

[fba827]

I went to the shaman right away, and couldnt believe how much better a shaman can be than a cleric.

It's entirely dependent on the type of character you want to play.
Sure, the shaman may have some better striker abilities or defender abilities, but they can't touch the cleric in healing ability or radiant damage output (radiant damage being the damage type with a large number of creatures that aren't resistant and in fact vulnerable to).


Sure, if you compare a particular power against another (such as your invoker vs wizard power example) you'll find some better than others.

But, in the end, I think you'll find that the phb2 classes are more about tactical situations and phb1 classes are more "straightforward" as a whole.

 

[James McMurray]

A single attack stat for all powers isn't necessarily power creep, just versatility creep. It's definitely more choices, but that's only more powerful if the powers in the PHB are balanced against each other and the ones in the PHB2 aren't.

 

[Mengu]

More generally, most the classes in phb1 need 2 stats to hit and a 3rd for random bonuses. All the classes in phb2 seem to only need 1 stat to hit.

Indeed. They seem to have figured out how to design classes. Paladins and Star Pact Warlocks have a few unfortunate design flows. However I'd argue that clerics are still quite good, as they don't really need 3 stats, you either build a strength cleric (str/wis), or a wisdom cleric (wis/cha). Humans run into some problems with at-will powers, but I'm sure Divine Power will clear up those clogs.

But a lot of the PHB classes are already designed this way, Rogues, Archer Rangers, a number of Fighter builds, Warlords, etc. And there are a few PB2 classes that need multiple stats, such as the Barbarian relying on Dexterity for AC in addition to needing Strength and Con or Cha. Fortunately there is a little bit of built in defense with the Barbarian. I feel they did a very respectable job with class design in PHB2.

There are a few powers that make me scratch my head though.

I took a look at the invoker and divine bolts hit me: this is what magic missile should have been. two hits of 1d6+mod damage to either one or 2 targets? thats better than twin strike. Vanguards lightning is strictly better than scorching burst. However, grasping shards is the real star, as it doubles as a minion nuker and slower, ie makes scorching burst and ray of frost obsolete. With divine bolts and grasping shards an invoker wont miss only having 2 at wills. I remember wizards were often human because they wanted the 3rd.

Right again. They figured out how to make controllers. The Wizard should have some "fixes" coming its way with Arcane power (at least we hope).

 

[cdrcjsn]

Right again. They figured out how to make controllers. The Wizard should have some "fixes" coming its way with Arcane power (at least we hope).

We've been pretty much told as much by some of the designers. They decided to err on the side of caution with the Wizard, so the at-wills reflect that.

However, has anyone actually played a high level Wizard?

I would venture to say that they're still one of the most powerful classes at paragon level in either PHB1 or PHB2.

It might not have the ability to output huge DPS like a rain of blows fighter, but they have tons of powers that stun, daze, and blind mutliple creatures as well as modify terrain that can make any fight almost trivial.

 

[DracoSuave]

I never got that. 'You have to ignore half your powers at each level.' In reality, you have to ignore 3/4s of your powers, cause you only -get- one unless you're a wizard. And for clerics, that's -only- if you don't go Str/Wis. As it turns out, you're not as disadvantaged so long as your power choices are decent. The thing is, Charisma usually gives you bonus healing for a cleric, and not much else. Fact is, you're already getting that from Wisdom anyways, so it's not like you're losing much in going Str/Wis.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The two big issues you raise have been discussed a few times ))

Specifically
a) Looks like they've ditched the 'two half classes in one' vision which prevailed for Cleric, Paladin, Warlock in PHB1

b) Wizard at-wills are somewhat sucky compared to the new controller at-wills.

FWIW, there is a thread or two in house rules which are considering the impact of modifying dual ability classes in PHB 1 so that, for instance, all the ones which currently use Str to attack become Wis to attack (and use Str for any secondary abilities - toning down Righteous Brand a little bit right away!).

Cheers

 

[jasin]

A single attack stat for all powers isn't necessarily power creep, just versatility creep. It's definitely more choices, but that's only more powerful if the powers in the PHB are balanced against each other and the ones in the PHB2 aren't.

In practice, versatility creep is power creep, since it allows you a broader selection in which to find synergies with stuff you already have.

 

[Runestar]

However, has anyone actually played a high level Wizard?

I would venture to say that they're still one of the most powerful classes at paragon level in either PHB1 or PHB2.

Orb wizards come to mind. At epic, you can expect to remove 1 out of 5 foes from each encounter permanently. Unless your DM runs solos or elites. Then it can potentially improve to 2 of 5 foes or 5 of 5 foes (effectively).

Their strengths clearly do not stem from their ability to deal AoE damage.