[PHB II]Sorcerer Metamagic Specialist - Too Much?

[Victim]

The whole point of the rod is to give the feat to a caster who does not have the feat. The not increasing the spell level is a secondary (although potent) effect.

I don't believe you.

The so called secondary effect determines the entire price structure of the rod. I wouldn't say that the feat Quicken Spell is really that much better than Empower, and it's definitely not twice as good. It shouldn't be too difficult to design something that grants the feat, only on so many spells each day, but it would be little like the existing metamagic rods. To avoid the double spell slot cost for prepared casters, the item would probably have to be used at prep.

It's worthwhile for a character with a given metamagic to take a rod of the same feat, because of the instant use and lack of increased spell level. Even with the high price of metamagic rods. There are very few other ways to break the normal limits on the max level spell a character can cast; the Candle of Invocation and Incense of Meditation are the only core abilities that come to mind.

Basically, the main effect of a metamagic rod is to act as bonus spell levels that can only be applied in a certain way. The pricing mechanics seem to support this assertion.

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As nice as your example sounds, the caster is still using tons of high level slots for possibly little effect. If, by 15th level (min level for quickened II), people haven't figured out how to fight flying invisible guys, they deserve what's coming to them - those low level effects are still low level. Instead of a quickened fly, the caster could have spent only a 5th level slot and started the battle with Overland Flight running. You don't need to blow tons of resources on quicken if you can front load your actions with long duration spells.

 

[KarinsDad]

And a wizard can do exactly the same. Oh sure he has to prepare them quickened and the sorcerer can quicken them spontaneously but this is simply the advantage sorcerers have.

Or are you saying that the sorcerer is overpowered because he can spontaneoulsy cast spells and a wizard has to prepare them? Thats exactly the same situation. Quickening just increases the level. You would probably better off disallowing the sorcerer alltogether as you have such a big problem with a caster having the right spells for the right situation.

I said it several times in this thread, I will say it again:

Quicken spells are not a problem.
Spontaneous spells are not a problem.

Quicken Spontaneous spells are a real serious problem. It is the synergy of the two combined that makes it so potent.

Do you really think that WotC added the Quicken Spell rule:

Special: This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

because they really thought that spontaneous metamagic should always be a full round action? They could have just as easily allowed it and said it was an exception to the full round rule. The likely reason they did not do this is because they knew how potent Spontaneous Quicken spells are.

Or does it make more sense that they repeatedly limited Spontaneous Quicken Spell to a set number of times per day because it is just too darn useful and powerful?

Consider the fact that the Quicken Spell Metamagic Rod is limited to 3 times per day and the rod is a lot more expensive than the other metamagic rods. Also, Sudden Quicken is not only limited to once per day, but it has a plethora of (6 specific) metamagic feats as prerequisites.

Too bad the author of the Variant Sorcerer did not actually read the other Spontaneous Quicken possibilities and realize what a boon he was giving to players in exchange for the low utility Familiar.

Except for not increasing the level of the spell, a weaker version of the once per day Sudden Quicken was given 3+ times with only a single metamagic feat prerequisite: Quicken Spell. That's nearly giving a high level end of chain feat 3+ times to a class with that class only having to qualify for one of the feats (instead of all 6). 3+ times per day has got to be nearly equal in power to Sudden Quickness, even if the spell level is 4 higher. The utility of being able to do it 3+ times per day makes up (or nearly makes up) in utility what the 4 extra levels does in spell levels.

On top of that, the "Can cast a spontaneous metamagic feat spell as a standard action" adds even more utility outside of just Spontaneous Quicken to the class.

The two of these combined are not very balanced when compared to a Familiar.


Quite frankly, just giving the Variant Sorcerer the "Can cast a spontaneous metamagic feat spell as a standard action" 3+Int times per day in exchange for the Familiar and not allowing Spontaneous Quicken would have been balanced.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't believe you.

The so called secondary effect determines the entire price structure of the rod. I wouldn't say that the feat Quicken Spell is really that much better than Empower, and it's definitely not twice as good.

You do not have to believe me, but it's true. I suspect most knowledgeable players would rather have Quicken than Empower.

In practice, anything that gives more actions per round to one side or the other wins battles. And if it does this as a magic item, WotC was going to up the ante with regard to cost (do not get me wrong, the "does not increase spell level" also increases the cost, but it is not the only factor).

Slow (and Heightened Slow), Black Tentacles, or any other spell that controls the battlefield and limits the number of actions for opponents (or gives more actions to allies like Haste) are huge spells. Fortunately for most DMs, most players do not realize it.

WotC realized this by making Summon Monster spells one round spells. Otherwise, it would have been the spell du jour for nearly all spell casters. Outnumber your opponents as quickly as possible. WotC knew this and limited these spells both in power and in casting time.

They also realized this by nerfing the 3E version of Haste.

 

[Stalker0]

Quicken Spontaneous spells are a real serious problem. It is the synergy of the two combined that makes it so potent.

I think what I and other posters are saying is that experience has shown this is in fact not the case. Many people have houseruled that quicken works just fine for sorcs, and I'm not hearing about any balance problems.

A lot of people feel the sorc doesn't stand up to the wizard, so while I think WOTC's initial caution was well deserved (the ability to quicken any spell any time does sound very scary) I think long years of routine playing has shown this caution is no longer needed.

 

[Thanee]

Quicken Spontaneous spells are a real serious problem. It is the synergy of the two combined that makes it so potent.

Potent, definitely. Too strong, I don't really know, although I'm somewhat with you there.

BTW, there is another WotC product, which allows spontaneous quicken in a similar, even less limited fashion (XPH).

The limiting factor for Metamagic Specialist seems quite alright to me. Unlimited access seems be a bit much, but 3+Int is a fair compromise probably.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

A lot of people feel the sorc doesn't stand up to the wizard, so while I think WOTC's initial caution was well deserved (the ability to quicken any spell any time does sound very scary) I think long years of routine playing has shown this caution is no longer needed.

Has it? Do you really think that most games with PC Sorcerers actually have a house rule that Quicken Spell is allowed, or that most games with PC Sorcerers have the Sorcerer taking the 7 feat Sudden Quicken, or that most DMs in most games hand out expensive Rods of Quicken Metamagic to their Sorcerer PCs? I doubt "routine playing" has really illustrated anything of the sort since I suspect that Spontaneous Quicken is not something that routinely shows up in most games since it typically takes significant effort to acquire it.


I also suspect that many people who play Sorcerers do not play them anywhere near their potential. Sorcerers are more powerful than Wizards as is. The issue of why some people think Wizards are better is one of versatility (and number of feats), but not actual power, even with Wizards getting a higher level spell every other level.

1) Spontaneous Metamagic is one of the nicest features of the game, even without Spontaneous Quicken. I have seen a lot of Sorcerers played that did not take many or even any metamagic feats. It's gimping the Sorcerer to do that. Ask Thanee what is possible with a Sorcerer.

2) Wizards spend much of their gold adding spells to their books and possibly adding scrolls or other charged items, just to acquire the "spells per day" of a Sorcerer. To offset this, they have more feats. But, Sorcerers tend to have more magical items (because they have more gold) unless the Wizard focuses on Item Creation.

3) Except at the lowest levels, I have never seen a well designed Sorcerer run out of good spells. I have seen Wizards run out of good spells. By the time the divine spell casters are mostly out of healing, the Sorcerer still has power to spare. The Wizard may or may not be capable of much more unless he digs into charged items. By about 6th level or so, I never see a Sorcerer out of spells at all. The same cannot be said of Wizards until about 10th level, at least in our games which sometimes (usually in "dungeon settings") have 4 or more significant combats in a single day.

4) With their number of spells, having the ability to Quicken or cast Instantaneous spells for a Sorcerer is not a drain at all, especially at medium to high levels.

 

[Stalker0]

Has it? Do you really think that most games with PC Sorcerers actually have a house rule that Quicken Spell is allowed, or that most games with PC Sorcerers have the Sorcerer taking the 7 feat Sudden Quicken, or that most DMs in most games hand out expensive Rods of Quicken Metamagic to their Sorcerer PCs?

I do not think the majority of games with sorcs use houserules that allow sorcs to quicken spells. What I'm saying is I believe the vast majority of people who have houseruled the sorc haven't had a problem with it. I've seen lots of threads on this board about people houseruling the sorc, including the quicken rule. I have seen very little feedback of people taking away the houserule because they felt it made the sorc too powerful.

I've played sorcs a few times, and I agree they can be powerful. Sponteanous metamagic is powerful. But I don't think spontaneous quicken is really that much more powerful. It still costs +4 spell levels.

 

[Thanee]

My only actual gaming experience with the Sorcerer and Quicken Spell is my 17th-level Sorceress/Incantatrix, which has the Quicken Spell feat and the Instant Metamagic (2/day) ability.

Can't say, that this made her that much more powerful, really. More powerful for sure, and sometimes it is really handy, but it's not game-breakingly powerful. Even without Quicken there is still Twin Spell, which is not quite as good, but also somewhat similar, and there is Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability.

It would probably be a bit too much, if it didn't have a rather strict daily limit (3+Int is not that much), but with the limit, I think it's alright. And you give up the familiar, which can be very useful (or have to pick the Obtain Familiar feat).

Bye
Thanee