PHB2 = World of Warcraft D&D?

[Odhanan]

Given that the search function isn't available to non-paying members, that isn't always possible.

Shawn

Forgive the irritated post, Shawn, Jeremy. The issue has been talked about so many times, and in terms not always polite, as someone posted above, that I'm just getting wary of the "videogamey" argument on that one.

I guess I've some common influences with posters here like Henry or Colonel Hardisson. I see the challenge of Eowyn vs. the Witch King more than the Paladin of Diablo in the Knight's challenge, and a very interesting tactical option as far as the game itself is concerned. I can't wait to play a Knight at a D&D table, personally.

 

[Shawn_Kehoe]

Forgive the irritated post, Shawn, Jeremy. The issue has been talked about so many times, and in terms not always polite, as someone posted above, that I'm just getting wary of the "videogamey" argument on that one.

I guess I've some common influences with posters here like Henry or Colonel Hardisson. I see the challenge of Eowyn vs. the Witch King more than the Paladin of Diablo in the Knight's challenge, and a very interesting tactical option as far as the game itself is concerned. I can't wait to play a Knight at a D&D table, personally.

No problem, dude. The D&D Open included both a dragon shaman and a knight - I can say that both were very interesting classes from a mechanical standpoint. I can honestly see the dragon shaman replacing the bard in parties that want the group benefits but can't quite reconcile the traveling musician with the group's concept.

Shawn

 

[Agent Oracle]

Actually, the Knight's challenge isn't really about holding aggro, (incidentally, it's a term that i never heard before WoW came out. Excluding Steve Irwin's crocodile rival..)

1st challenge: Straight + to hit / + to damage / + to will save Vs. targeted enemy. Like a ranger's favored enemy, only it dosn't work on multiple opposed foes at once.

2nd challenge: Immediately be targeted by the strongest enemy (or enemies) in 100 feet. He does NOT have to behave like he's mindless though, he can stay in melee against an ally of yours, and still attack him (even though he'd prefer to be hitting the knight), or play keep-away by using ranged weapons or whatever.

3rd challenge: Bonus to saves Vs. fear effects for your allies.

4th challenge: Makes enemies shaken.

5th challenge: Extra saving throws Vs. mind-affecting spells or abilities.

6th challenge: Stay on your feet even after -10 hit points. A form of technical immortality (as long as there is a really good healer nearby)

As for the dragon shaman: He's an interesting class: His powers are almost universally based around maintaining party cohesion, since everything he can do is in a tight radius. I currently have one player of a Dragon Shaman in my Dragonstar / Traveler campaign. At 1st level, the "fast healing" aura is almost laughably weak, but within 4 levels his powers blossom. the simple fast healing aura has saved the entire party on several occasions when no clerical or medical services could be found. And the energy resistances are nothing to sneeze at either.

 

[Remathilis]

I had a discussion not too long ago about an encounter with a knight and some of his allies turning a vrock into hamburger. Once we found out all the things we did wrong (and they were plentiful) but the end result (for the DM remained) that the knight was too MMORPG for his game.

So its a phenomenon that some groups experience, but I think this depends highly on a.) your opinions of MMORPGs and b.) Your willingness to accept new character mechanics in game (said DM: low on both). Like some of the other innovative classes (warlock, scout, etc) knight changes the dynamic of the game and that doesn't work with everyone. However, in the right group, the class adds a wonderful dynamic of battlefield control and tanking the fighter doesn't.

 

[Vlad Le Démon]

I don't know if PHB2 how much is influenced by WoW, but i'm pretty sure that the illustrators of D&D3 and WoW are drawing their ideas from Warhammer Battle.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don't know if PHB2 how much is influenced by WoW, but i'm pretty sure that the illustrators of D&D3 and WoW are drawing their ideas from Warhammer Battle.

It's pretty circular at this point. D&D begat Warhammer, Warhammer begat Warcraft, Warcraft begat World of Warcraft, WoW begat a lot of other stuff, including modern elements of Warhammer.

 

[Felon]

2nd challenge: Immediately be targeted by the strongest enemy (or enemies) in 100 feet. He does NOT have to behave like he's mindless though, he can stay in melee against an ally of yours, and still attack him (even though he'd prefer to be hitting the knight), or play keep-away by using ranged weapons or whatever.

Well, this is the taunt ability folks are referring to. Obviously, there's supposed to be some coordination amongst the party so the taunted mob doesn't have an easy out.

 

[Wrathamon]

the term aggro was around when Everquest came out... actually a lot of the WoW terms used are from EQ that have spread out.

Respec was something I first heard when I was playing Darkage of Camelot. I dont know if other MMOs at the time were allowing this. But, they were one of the first to allow you to respec your character.

WoW isnt that original. It just takes what came before it and puts it into a nice accessible and very polished package.

I believe Wotc is looking at that and going maybe we need to make D&D more accessible and polished. ???

 

[Felon]

I believe Wotc is looking at that and going maybe we need to make D&D more accessible and polished. ???

The thing is, I don't find the knight to be all that polished. His fighting challenge ability has a lot of weird conditions and provisos to keep track of. In one situation, the knight is penalized for dropping below 0 hit points due to the shame of defeat, yet in another he's rewarded for dropping below 0 hit points as a result of the increased confidence (he's sort of a Dudeson I guess).

The class also goes a little overboard with features: bulwark of defense, vigilant defender, and impetuous endurance all seem like the designer being unwilling to leave material on the cutting room floor. That "overstuffed" approach is also evident in the Tome of Battle classes as well. Personally, I prefer classes that are streamlined with one or two core features (rage, sneak attack, skirmish, spellcasting, combat style, favored enemy), and then maybe two or three more minor features, all of which improve over successive levels (uncanny dodge, trap sense, evasion).

 

[Victim]

The thing is, I don't find the knight to be all that polished. His fighting challenge ability has a lot of weird conditions and provisos to keep track of. In one situation, the knight is penalized for dropping below 0 hit points due to the shame of defeat, yet in another he's rewarded for dropping below 0 hit points as a result of the increased confidence (he's sort of a Dudeson I guess).

The class also goes a little overboard with features: bulwark of defense, vigilant defender, and impetuous endurance all seem like the designer being unwilling to leave material on the cutting room floor. That "overstuffed" approach is also evident in the Tome of Battle classes as well. Personally, I prefer classes that are streamlined with one or two core features (rage, sneak attack, skirmish, spellcasting, combat style, favored enemy), and then maybe two or three more minor features, all of which improve over successive levels (uncanny dodge, trap sense, evasion).

The problem with going with a few core features can be easily seen in the fighter class: too many dead levels. Each level that the class gets nothing makes multiclassing or PrCing much more attractive. So a bunch of minor features can really help keep people in the class. So I don't really see the weak specials the knight gets as being much different than the rogue or barbarian's advancement in Trap Sense and such.