Star Trek Picard season 2 (spoilers maybe unmarked)

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
So the really odd thing, within universe, is that Rios and Raffi both have their own crews who have possibly been transported to this timeline and neither of them bother to check up on any of them at all.
Who says they didn't?

I sometimes feel like the sheer volume of things fans demand be explicitly explained to them would utterly ruin a show and its pacing. Do we really need to know the details of these things, given that they don't push the narrative forward at all? Can't we just accept the story as they chose to tell it without being spoon-fed every background detail?
 

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Mezuka

Hero
Who says they didn't?

I sometimes feel like the sheer volume of things fans demand be explicitly explained to them would utterly ruin a show and its pacing. Do we really need to know the details of these things, given that they don't push the narrative forward at all? Can't we just accept the story as they chose to tell it without being spoon-fed every background detail?
I call it the Harry Potter Syndrome, in which each book became thicker because fans demanded to know more about minor characters who had served their purpose and were not needed to go forward.
 




MarkB

Legend
Anyone else find it really odd that Soji isn't even mentioned after the crew finds themselves in the changed timeline?

Everyone else is tracked down even though some are nowhere near each other. But the person with the positronic brain that can, almost certainly, perform the calculations needed for the time jump, without any of the borg queen drama, isn't even brought up?

Seems like a glaring omission by the writers to not even bring her up (even if it's to exclude her being able to help or to state that she wasn't created in this timeline or something)!
The only people who retained their memories of the original timeline were those who were on one of the ships adjacent to the Borg space-rip when things went wibbly. That doesn't include Soji, who stayed behind at her Deltan diplomatic event when Dr Jurati was picked up.

So, even if she exists in the alternate timeline and they do find her, they're strangers to her, and she has no reason to help them break her timeline.
 

Hades#2

Explorer
I enjoyed the 1st season more than this season. I don't mind time travel stories if they are done well. This one is not. It reminds me of the Voyager episode when the crew were in the past. One moment Janeway couldn't type on a keyboard and the next she was typing like a pro. The crew should not be able to easily figure out and use our current level of tech.
 

Ryujin

Legend
The only people who retained their memories of the original timeline were those who were on one of the ships adjacent to the Borg space-rip when things went wibbly. That doesn't include Soji, who stayed behind at her Deltan diplomatic event when Dr Jurati was picked up.

So, even if she exists in the alternate timeline and they do find her, they're strangers to her, and she has no reason to help them break her timeline.
And the odds that a secret culture of synthetics somehow survived the purges of an ultra paranoid totalitarian regime would seem to be vanishingly small.
 

Who says they didn't?

I sometimes feel like the sheer volume of things fans demand be explicitly explained to them would utterly ruin a show and its pacing. Do we really need to know the details of these things, given that they don't push the narrative forward at all? Can't we just accept the story as they chose to tell it without being spoon-fed every background detail?
I was just saying that within universe what happened to those crews is the bigger question than "where's Soji?"

But I guess now that you bring it up, I disagree, and this has nothing to do with me needing to be "spoon-fed every background detail". I think characters should be written with consistent believable behavior. It's one thing to have inconsistent character motivations when you are trying to corral the characters together to tell a particular story in the context of an episode in a series where episodes are expected to each tell mostly self-contained stories in a rigid time frame (ie: pre-streaming Trek). I've done enough writing to know that it's hard to make characters do what you want them to, and I'll forgive some inconsistencies when writers are working within tight constraints.

It is quite another thing to be inconsistent in the context of a show in this era, where they have a whole season to tell a story (in episodes that themselves it seems can vary by about 10 minutes in length), to needlessly make two of the characters somewhat implausibly reinstated as starship captains (Starfleet is full of great officers, I don't think they need to reactivate retired ones with checkered pasts) and then have them drop their responsibilities to their crews (which Trek has trained us to know that starship captains put the highest priority on) as soon as that element of their characters was inconvenient to the story they wanted to tell. They had a timeskip in part to give them lot of leeway to put the characters wherever they wanted to set up the season, so I'm going to hold them to a standard of positioning them for the story they want to tell.

I can maybe buy that Rios would just quietly decide to himself that the best thing he could do for his crew was get with the time travel plan, or make whatever attempts he made to contact them without ever mentioning it to anyone else. That seems reasonably consistent with his character. But I really don't don't buy that Raffi would have a lost crew and constrain her efforts to help them to going along with the plan, which she is otherwise pretty vocal about not liking, or that she would otherwise stay mum about the issue. Not that I need more complaining from Raffi, which is what I suspect acknowleging that the crew of her ship is lost in fascist future would consist of. But the solution, if they didn't want to explore this aspect of the character, was to not needlessly put her in a command position when they could have easily worked her into the story in myriad other ways.
 

MarkB

Legend
I can maybe buy that Rios would just quietly decide to himself that the best thing he could do for his crew was get with the time travel plan, or make whatever attempts he made to contact them without ever mentioning it to anyone else. That seems reasonably consistent with his character. But I really don't don't buy that Raffi would have a lost crew and constrain her efforts to help them to going along with the plan, which she is otherwise pretty vocal about not liking, or that she would otherwise stay mum about the issue. Not that I need more complaining from Raffi, which is what I suspect acknowleging that the crew of her ship is lost in fascist future would consist of. But the solution, if they didn't want to explore this aspect of the character, was to not needlessly put her in a command position when they could have easily worked her into the story in myriad other ways.
Of everyone in the team, Raffi has the strongest motivation to get out of their current situation as fast as possible. She may have other friendships aboard the Excelsior, but one of her deepest friendships, and certainly her strongest sense of responsibility, is her mentoring relationship with Elnor. And in the alternate timeline he's a member of a dissident group for whom standing orders are "execute on sight".

From literally the first moment she catches up with him he's living on borrowed time, and absolutely everything she does is dedicated to keeping him alive for just a few minutes longer. She doesn't have time to go checking in with other members of her crew, and in her position of police officer she'd have no excuse to do so anyway. Picard's plan may not seem the most rational to her, but it's the plan with the best chance of getting Elnor out of harm's way quickly, so she goes along with it.
 

I mean, ultimately, the entire reason some people remember the original imeline and some don't is "A wizard did it"- Q. All of them have reason to suspect that anyone near the Stargazer's explosion might know something, because the Stargazer (with them on it) explodes and suddenly the universe is all weird.

We see both Picard and Seven try to gather some information about the world, they are in the best position to do so. But every single one of them has to play their role convincingly enough and go with the flow as they can, because they lose control over the situation entirely if they get found out.

Raffi is second-guessing their abrupt escape and said they should have researched more, but Seven points out rightfully that they didn't have the time. They couldn't maintain their charade for long, and the Confederation is likely not a stranger to mind control and shapeshifters. Seven's alternate future husband said as much when confronting her. (Well, he doesn't mention shapeshifters, but it would be surprising if they hadn't encountered that,too.)
 

MarkB

Legend
I mean, ultimately, the entire reason some people remember the original imeline and some don't is "A wizard did it"- Q. All of them have reason to suspect that anyone near the Stargazer's explosion might know something, because the Stargazer (with them on it) explodes and suddenly the universe is all weird.
Yeah, "everyone in the Stargazer fleet" is just an assumption that fits known facts at this point. It could just as easily have been "everyone Q / The Clockwork Borg Queen / The Watcher / Whoever deliberately selected", or some other factor entirely that we haven't been made aware of yet.

Proximity has been a factor in retaining memories during time travel / timeline alterations before (City on the Edge of Forever, First Contact, Trials and Tribble-ations) but there's usually some other technobabble factor involved beyond that. Ultimately it's Rule of Drama, as with many factors of such stories.
 

S2E5

So...the Watcher looks like Picards "girlfriend"...guess they are not going to explain that at all. And she is a "Gary Seven" type.

And...er....so Picard does NOT know his family history? He knows all about the abandoned Picard house? And...er....he says the Picard family is living in England? So how/why does Renee Picard join NASA? Why the AMERICAN space agency?

So...the borg queen calls the cops for help...ok. But why all the switching between French and English? The Picard Ruins are in France.....so they speak French. And then one cop shows up....alone? Do French cops not do the Back Up thing? And ok....French Cop finds a CRASHED SPACESHIP....and guess he just finds the wide open door and wanders in side????? Really? REALLY? Then both he and the borg queen do some yells in English...sigh.

And....sure....some reason...Jeriti is sleeping in the Picard Ruins as they are "warmer" then the space ship. Because SURE the space ships cloak, worldwide transporters, cell phone all work just fine....but the ship heater does not work.

Then Jeriti hears the screams and....er....grabs the World War Two shotgun that was sitting LOADED on the mantle and runs to save the dumb French cop. Um...does not the space ship have a couple phasers or weapons on it?

And they save Rios.....and then...er.....let all the criminals on the bus go? Gee, hope none of them change history.....

And....er...ok....so why is NASA pilot Renee in L.A. ? Did NASA move to L.A. in 2024? You'd think they would be in Florida, right?

So...um...er......ok....Q traveled back in time to make Renee sad and not be an astronaut........but was not the Evil Future Jean Lucs fault?

And if Renee is a typical Picard show broken crazy mess of a human....ER....does not NASA boot such pathetic people OUT of the astronaut club at like warp speed?

And....ok....so Q does a Sigmund Freud cosplay? But.....um....did not Q "come back in time" three days before the EVENT too? And....right before that....he lost his powers? And then in like a minute he.....SOMEHOW replaced her doctor? Or did he snap his Q finger to do that before he lost his power?

And...er....EVERY Soong guy in Earth history has been a super smart scientist? Ok...sure.

Also odd.....the Egenic Wars raged across Earth in the '90's, yet Picard has YET to mention that.

And oh...look....his daughter looks just like Soji from season 1. Oh and she has "death by sunlight" disorder? (wonder why she does not go live in Alaska where they have the six months of no sunlight).

But Q knows the cure. Because...er....sure...with no powers Q still knows EVERYTHING. Somehow. But if he does....why does he need all this silly help? He knows everything, right? Is he obsessed with making it look like an accident? Why?

And Dr. Soong has a magic Tholian Wab flying force flied drone swarm?

And super security for a NASA ball? Why?

And borg Jeriti......hooray
 

Hades#2

Explorer
I agree this season is a mess. I just got caught up on the last 2 episodes and was astonished at how much I found wrong with them. Guinan should not be on Earth. Wasn't she rescued by the Enterprise B in Generations? How can the Borg queen imitate voices well enough to fool the computer? Just too many problems with this season.
 

Liked this episode.
I kinda felt John de Lancie channeled a bit of his character on Breaking Bad into Q when he talked with Soong about having something meaningful to them. Which might hint that Q actually lost (context of the scene + his Breaking Bad character also lost someone) someone that he cared about, or at least they are seriously threatened.

Also interesting - Brent Spiner is every male Soong, and now Isia Briones plays the female ones, so to speak?
Maybe they are all clones of the 21st century Soong? Or he created some clever genetic/biological machnery that allowed him to self-clone by "regular" procreation. That's fascinating, scary or both.
 

Yeah, "everyone in the Stargazer fleet" is just an assumption that fits known facts at this point. It could just as easily have been "everyone Q / The Clockwork Borg Queen / The Watcher / Whoever deliberately selected"
It always seemed apparent to me that Picard's crew - and only they - where deliberately selected to cross the timeline. I see nothing to indicate an accident or proximity had anything to do with it.
 



Omand

Hero
Am I the only one who thinks (depowered) Q is actually trying to fix the timeline, if only to get his powers back?
Maybe?

I am on the fence about that idea.

Messing with another Picard (Renee) is right in Q's wheelhouse as a character, especially if it also messes with his favourite adversary, Jean-Luc. So getting Jean-Luc to fix things as a test is in character. So, no, Q would be breaking things on purpose here as part of the test.

With that said, Q being de-powered, or not able to affect Renee directly because someone else is watching over her (the Supervisor/Gary Seven org sent by superior beings) could throw things sideways.

Maybe Q is actually supposed to be part of this event in history (and he does not realize it), whereby he gives Soong the secret to unlocking Augments that work, creating Khan et al, and setting in motion what we know as Trek history.

I actually think at this point the mis-direction/wild card is the Borg Queen that is not supposed to be there. Maybe that is what breaks things?

They are keeping us guessing and so far I am digging into it. Hopefully we get a bit more clarity in the next episode since we are now at the mid-point of the season.

Cheers :)
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
S2E5

And super security for a NASA ball? Why?

This one was a hard sell for me - the super security for a NASA party just sounded ridiculous.

All they had to do was have some reclusive Billionaire and his company be handling the space launch - then it sounds eccentric (as in completely unnecessary but why not...). I believe SpaceX handles 2/3rds of NASA's launches IRL - so why not have some eccentric Billionaire doing it?
 

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