Pineapple Express: Someone Is Wrong on the Internet?

[overgeeked]

I have found that not to be the case.

Lucky you. I have. Repeatedly.

Asking, "Why are you optimizing so ruthlessly when no one else is?" has been enough to clue someone into the expectations at the table.

I've never found that to work. It typically ends with an argument you could lift from here. "Why are you telling me how to play?" or some such nonsense.

 

[trappedslider]

Some threads do better as a single blog post rather than an actual attempt at discussion. And I hear live journal still exist or wattpad.

 

[overgeeked]

It is something of a vicious cycle, I think.
1. Optimize character somewhat.
2. Fight things with character (or do whatever that character wants to do, but when talking optimization that's usually fighting).
3. "Huh, that was easy. Make it harder."
4. Fight other things.
5. "Damn, that was hard. I need to up my game." Optimize some more.
6. GOTO 2.

And by the time someone has completed a cycle or two of that, anyone else who wants to play together with that character needs to go down the optimization route themselves. The only four solutions I can think of are:
A. The only winning move is not to play. Don't optimize, and make sure you don't play with people who do. This is a bit hard to do on the game design level, though.
B. Remove most choices from character creation/advancement and limit choices to specific points where each choice is supposedly balanced with other choices. In 5.0, you see this with the Totem Barbarian where (in theory) Bear, Eagle, Elk, Tiger, and Wolf are all balanced against one another, and choosing one doesn't change anything else downstream.
C. Make a super-balanced system where there are numerous optimization paths that all turn out to be balanced with one another. Good luck with that.
D. Balance in chunks. Instead of allowing many smaller choices that may or may not synergize with one another, have characters make fewer but more significant choices, and then it becomes easier to balance those against one another.

5e mostly goes for option D, with few choices to make once you've chosen a class and subclass.

Exactly. Optimization is about beating the game and winning at all costs. It destroys the fun of the game. If the gamer wanted a challenge, they wouldn't optimize. They just want to win, so broken builds.

 

[Hussar]

/me gets out the popcorn to watch how this will go. Everyone get your Bingo cards ready.

 

[Ryujin]

Being a referee for a min-maxer/optimizer is no fun.

I don't know if I've told this story here before. Back when Alternity first came out I ran a sort of pseudo-Babylon 5 campaign in it. Even adapted one of the adventures from the B5 RPG for it. Of course my players just had to be min-maxers and everyone did some sort of combat specialization be it melee, ranged, or combat piloting. No one had any interaction skills to speak of, thinking that there would always be a way around needing them. At one point they captured 3 guys who they figured all had the information they needed, to get to the next stage of the adventure.

They start questioning them. Roll abysmally, of course, as no one has any skill. They execute the first one they questioned, figuring that fear will make the next guy spill his metaphorical guts.

Give them huge bonuses for convincing the next guy. Crappy roll, so I play it that the guy doesn't believe they're going to kill one of their dwindling information resources. They end up spilling his literal guts.

Now they think the last guy can't possibly keep his mouth shut. I don't give any bonuses because this guy KNOWS he's the only one left with the information that they need. They get a halfway decent roll. For their dice. Which are terrible. no information. So they kill the last guy because they "can't let their reputation for brutality be compromised."

OK, next adventure.

 

[CleverNickName]

Exactly. Optimization is about beating the game and winning at all costs. It destroys the fun of the game. If the gamer wanted a challenge, they wouldn't optimize. They just want to win, so broken builds.

And that's where I come in, with my horde of equally-broken monsters!

They're not even all that broken. I don't have time to design tactical nukes that are custom-built to target specific characters. (Ain't nobody got time for that.) So usually I just give the boss monster a feat or two, maybe some different equipment. You'd be surprised what full plate and the Lucky feat will do for the Big Bad.

Mobility + Sentinel is a pretty good all-purpose combo, too. Magic Initiate is always good for defying expectations too (surprise! these kobolds know magic missile!)

Don't feel bad about mixing things up.

 

[MNblockhead]

The 50 year old movie was a huge hit with my kids, which was great. Even Bruce's janky jaw motions didn't break the spell, although they definitely noticed it.

The real terror for me is being reminded that it was released almost 50 years ago.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The real terror for me is being reminded that it was released almost 50 years ago.

My work here is done.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I liked Return of the Jedi. I always enjoyed that and Empire more than a New Hope (though I liked all three)

CAN I GET A BANHAMMER HERE?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Being a referee for a min-maxer/optimizer is no fun.

Yeah, the one in my group is extremely self-disciplined about not dragging the whole game into his orbit. He will offer advice if asked and helps keep me on track, rules-wise, but otherwise is happy to just be very effective in combat while still allowing most of the game to be about roleplay and narrative.

It would be easy for him to wreck the campaigns, but fortunately, he's a great team player.