Pineapple Express: Someone Is Wrong on the Internet?

[soviet]

I think that's an artifact of the studio size, rather than a requirement.

If Elon Musk created a game studio (please, no), he would absolutely insist on creative control. But the richest man in the world (depending on the stock market that day) can't be considered an indie publisher by any reasonable standard, given the resources he can and will throw at everything.

I didn't say he would?

To qualify as an indie publisher he would have to write or design the game itself. Not just commission it. Not just develop it. Not just own the studio that publishes it. Not just type a three word prompt into AI autocorrect. Write or design it.

 

[Reynard]

I think that's an artifact of the studio size, rather than a requirement.

If Elon Musk created a game studio (please, no), he would absolutely insist on creative control. But the richest man in the world (depending on the stock market that day) can't be considered an indie publisher by any reasonable standard, given the resources he can and will throw at everything.

I mean, I think ShadowMusk would be an indie rpg if he and a small team made i, even if they spend tens of millions on art and marketing. It would be weird to put an upper budget limit on the meaning of "indie." How would you decide what that limit was?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

To qualify as an indie publisher he would have to write or design the game itself. Not just commission it. Not just develop it. Not just own the studio that publishes it. Not just type a three word prompt into AI autocorrect. Write or design it.

That's a better definition and covers stuff like Stardew Valley and Undertale -- both indie games, if any games are -- but if you require everything to be just one person, that leaves out games created by small teams.

Outside of the "special thanks" and translation teams, Darkest Dungeon looks like it was created by about 20 people. That's still an indie game in my mind and, I suspect, most others.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I mean, I think ShadowMusk would be an indie rpg if he and a small team made i, even if they spend tens of millions on art and marketing. It would be weird to put an upper budget limit on the meaning of "indie." How would you decide what that limit was?

I don't know there are firm boundaries. I think it's probably a combination of size, resources, hands-on involvement as @soviet says and probably being limited to being a developer and not being vertically integrated with a publisher. (So nothing under Microsoft/Activision/Blizzard can be indie, since the whole soup-to-nuts operation can be done in-house.)

 

[Reynard]

[not this thread]
Do you even realize you are being terribly rude and pretentious?

 

[soviet]

That's a better definition

It's the same definition.

and covers stuff like Stardew Valley and Undertale -- both indie games, if any games are -- but if you require everything to be just one person, that leaves out games created by small teams.

Outside of the "special thanks" and translation teams, Darkest Dungeon looks like it was created by about 20 people. That's still an indie game in my mind and, I suspect, most others.

I am not even slightly interested in video games. if you're not talking about TTRPGs maybe you should flag that more clearly?

 

[el-remmen]

I just reread Dune for the first time in about 23 years. I read it at least five times between 1987 (when I first read it for a HS English class and watched Lynch's film version - which I still love) and 2003 (when seeing some of the SyFy mini-series version and not liking it drove me back to the book). This time, it was trying the recent movies and finding Timothy Chalomet unconvincing as Paul, and Aquaman as a poorly cast Halleck, and being turned off as a result, that drove me to re-read it. Their first scene together was about as far as I got - which I admit is not far. But I dump out of movies fast. Life is too short.

I guess the intervening years of going to grad school for literary studies and being married to a poet and novelist has shaped my tastes and driven me towards thinking a lot more about craft and structure, and I found those aspects most disappointing this time around. The pacing is unsatisfying on the novel level (though some individual chapters were very well-paced). When it took until page 600-something to have some very lovely writing when Paul's consciousness is unstuck in time due to exposure to the spice. All I could think, however, was how the book needed more of this throughout, punctuated by the well-rendered moments of conflict and tension.

I still enjoyed re-reading it though. But nowadays I often wonder if this might be the last time I read this book that've engaged with so much. I mean, who knows what happens in the next 23 years?

Back in the day the opinions of others regarding the sequels is that they got "too weird" and my attempts at reading some of them in the 90s seemed to corroborate that, though my memory is fuzzy. But maybe I should try them again because my main complaint about Dune upon this reading is that it is not weird enough. It should have been weirder.

I just had the thought that what I want is Dune written by Octavia Butler. But then I realized, that her work already does explore many of the same themes.

Thank you and I hope you enjoyed this episode of "el-remmen actually read a book (and not just to his 3-year old)."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I am not even slightly interested in video games. if you're not talking about TTRPGs maybe you should flag that more clearly?

Everything I'm saying about videogame studios applies to TTRPGs. I'm using videogame examples because I can go on MobyGames and pull up the credits for practically any videogame ever. There doesn't appear to be a comparable resource for TTRPGs. (BoardGameGeeks doesn't seem to have everything and what it does have isn't as comprehensive.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I just reread Dune for the first time in about 23 years. I read it at least five times between 1987 (when I first read it for a HS English class and watched Lynch's film version - which I still love) and 2003 (when seeing some of the SyFy mini-series version and not liking it drove me back to the book). This time, it was trying the recent movies and finding Timothy Chalomet unconvincing as Paul, and Aquaman as a poorly cast Halleck, and being turned off as a result, that drove me to re-read it. Their first scene together was about as far as I got - which I admit is not far. But I dump out of movies fast. Life is too short.

I guess the intervening years of going to grad school for literary studies and being married to a poet and novelist has shaped my tastes and driven me towards thinking a lot more about craft and structure, and I found those aspects most disappointing this time around. The pacing is unsatisfying on the novel level (though some individual chapters were very well-paced). When it took until page 600-something to have some very lovely writing when Paul's consciousness is unstuck in time due to exposure to the spice. All I could think, however, was how the book needed more of this throughout, punctuated by the well-rendered moments of conflict and tension.

I still enjoyed re-reading it though. But nowadays I often wonder if this might be the last time I read this book that've engaged with so much. I mean, who knows what happens in the next 23 years?

Back in the day the opinions of others regarding the sequels is that they got "too weird" and my attempts at reading some of them in the 90s seemed to corroborate that, though my memory is fuzzy. But maybe I should try them again because my main complaint about Dune upon this reading is that it is not weird enough. It should have been weirder.

I just had the thought that what I want is Dune written by Octavia Butler. But then I realized, that her work already does explore many of the same themes.

Thank you and I hope you enjoyed this episode of "el-remmen actually read a book (and not just to his 3-year old)."

Yeah, Dune is one of those auteur written works that, frankly, should have given a bit more power in the hands of an editor. No book should ever force a reader to soldier through 600 pages before it gets good. (And that's independent of Herbert's homophobia and other issues.)

And I'm with you on the weirdness. I really like the controversial last three books because they are so weird. I can see the mundane world outside my window. I'm not looking for more mundanity in my far-future sci-fi.

 

[el-remmen]

Yeah, Dune is one of those auteur written works that, frankly, should have given a bit more power in the hands of an editor. No book should ever force a reader to soldier through 600 pages before it gets good. (And that's independent of Herbert's homophobia and other issues.)

And I'm with you on the weirdness. I really like the controversial last three books because they are so weird. I can see the mundane world outside my window. I'm not looking for more mundanity in my far-future sci-fi.

Oh I like mundanity. Mundanity like anything repeated ad infinitum becomes absurd. It is not a barrier to weird, at. all.