pirate sniper build

[statimp]

hey guys, i have been patrolling these threads for a while now, soaking up all the useful information, and i have decided to make a few threads of my own.

this is a sniper build i made for a pirate campaign. tell me what you think of it.

race: human
level 1: ranger

str 14
dex 18
con 12
int 14
wis 10
cha 10

feats: jotunbrud and monkey grip

level 2: take fighter and feat: exotic weapon proficiency repeating crossbow
level 3: feat: weapon focus crossbow and feat: point blank shot
level 4: +1 dex
level 5: feat: far shot
level 6: take deepwood sniper and feat: rapid reload
level 7: continue taking fighter
level 8: +1 dex and feat: crossbow sniper
level 9: feat: rapid shot
level 10: feat: precise shot
level 12: +1 dex, feat: weapon specialization crossbow and feat: ranged weapon mastery piercing
level 13: continue taking deepwood sniper
level 15: feat: concealed ambush
level 16: +1 dex
level 18: feat: able sniper
level 20: +1 dex

so the idea was to make a character with a REALLY big crossbow. so he's going to have a huge heavy repeating crossbow. originally i was going to give him a ballista to push around but i like this better.

by level 20 he'll have a range increment of 300', awesome crit range and damage and he'll be almost undetectable. perfect for firing from the crows nest at approaching ships.

I'm aware that some people disagree on whether or not powerful build and monkey grip stack but i already cleared it with the DM. it's okay because of how awesome it is. and it doesn't say they don't stack. he wont have a 25 foot long crossbow, it will just be about as big as he is (6' 8") with the remaining power coming from a massive amount of resistance.

he will be sitting up in the crows nest most of the time if we are in ship to ship combat and as far away as possible in a tree somewhere if we are on land. when he does end up in close combat with someone he should be able to hold his own alright, fighter BaB and decent strength coupled with wielding a large sword.

so, any questions or comments? anything you would change? anything i messed up?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

When you say a pirate sniper, do you mean like those Navy Seal snipers that killed a whole bunch of pirates recently? Because, as a Ninja, I'm totally in favor of sniping pirates.

First of all, what books are allowed? And you're using some 3.0 stuff. Is this a 3.0 game, or 3.5 with some leeway on older material?

level 2: take fighter and feat: exotic weapon proficiency repeating crossbow
level 3: feat: weapon focus crossbow and feat: point blank shot
level 4: +1 dex
level 5: feat: far shot
level 6: take deepwood sniper and feat: rapid reload
level 7: continue taking fighter
level 8: +1 dex and feat: crossbow sniper
level 9: feat: rapid shot
level 10: feat: precise shot
level 12: +1 dex, feat: weapon specialization crossbow and feat: ranged weapon mastery piercing
level 13: continue taking deepwood sniper
level 15: feat: concealed ambush
level 16: +1 dex
level 18: feat: able sniper
level 20: +1 dex

so the idea was to make a character with a REALLY big crossbow. so he's going to have a huge heavy repeating crossbow. originally i was going to give him a ballista to push around but i like this better.

Okay...where to start?
Drop Fighter, aside from 1-2 levels for feats if you need them. Don't bother going for ranged weapon mastery, it's not worth the cost to get there, nor is weapon specialization. Take all 10 levels of Deepwood Sniper, preferably early, not towards level 20. It's a very good class. Don't be afraid to level in Ranger, the free archery feats are helpful, Spot, hide, and move silently are class skills, and if you have access to non core books like Spell Compendium, the Ranger spell list actually became rather sexy. Level 1 Arrowmind means never having to pull out a melee weapon again. Another spell (Hawkeye, I think) lets your next ranged attack auto-hit. Arrow Storm, level 4, lets you unload on every single enemy nearby.
Get Rapid Shot (ideally, from Ranger 2) and Precise Shot MUCH, MUCH earlier. Rapid Shot will be key to your offense by giving you a full extra attack (and if you go to Ranger 6 and get Manyshot for free, Improved Rapid Shot from Complete Warrior to remove the -2 attack penalty may even be worth it) most rounds. Precise Shot is so you don't have to lay off on the artillery just because your friends got into melee.
Far Shot isn't an awful choice, per say, but if you're feat starved, it wouldn't hurt to drop it and just use the Distance weapon enhancement on your crossbow.
Able Sniper iirc is a pretty terrible feat. The +4 to hide after sniping is tiny compared to the effective +10 from Concealed Ambush, and you don't really need help in hitting as an archer, so the +2 attack bonus when sniping is both situational and weak. the only reason to take it is because Concealed Ambush requires a higher level to grab. Getting it after the better feat just makes no sense.
You will want Improved Precise Shot at some point. If not from Ranger 11, then as an actual spent feat. Grappling, concealment, and cover WILL come up, and will be annoying as hell to deal with. Alternatively, the Seeking weapon enhancement will cover you. Spell Compendium also has the level 1 spell Guided Shot as a swift action to ignore concealment and cover (other than full) for one round. But you don't get enough spell slots to regularly cast that.
Crossbow Sniper also isn't a bad feat necessarily. But it's only half dex to damage, and only at 60 ft or closer, which if things go right, won't happen often for you. It's ok, just keep it "low priority" when deciding how soon to take it.

by level 20 he'll have a range increment of 300', awesome crit range and damage and he'll be almost undetectable. perfect for firing from the crows nest at approaching ships.

Good. Just remember many games never reach anywhere close to 20, even if the DM had intended them to. That's a long stretch of gaming, anything can happen. Don't build just for level 20, make sure the levels leading up to it are fun and playable, too.

I'm aware that some people disagree on whether or not powerful build and monkey grip stack but i already cleared it with the DM. it's okay because of how awesome it is. and it doesn't say they don't stack. he wont have a 25 foot long crossbow, it will just be about as big as he is (6' 8") with the remaining power coming from a massive amount of resistance.

Where is powerful build coming from? Jotunbrud? Note that Magic Item Compendium has Strongarm Bracers for 6000 gp. Gives you the powerful build benefit of using a larger weapon, os that's another option. Do you need the crossbow to lay flat on the ground or something? A bow would serve you much better. Especially as a "bombard" archer (you have no sneak attack requiring you to stay close, and have taken effort to increase your range), you really have no reason to not full attack very single round from as far away as possible. I'm not sure how much the heavy repeating crossbow may hinder you in that. Don't even worry about hiding until the enemies are actually near you (within ~100 ft). To be honest, other than hitting flat footed AC, I'm failing to see what benefit you're getting out of hiding at all.

he will be sitting up in the crows nest most of the time if we are in ship to ship combat and as far away as possible in a tree somewhere if we are on land. when he does end up in close combat with someone he should be able to hold his own alright, fighter BaB and decent strength coupled with wielding a large sword.

In addition to Deepwood Sniper, look at Cragtop Archer in Races of Stone. It's only a 5 level class, and even just a few levels helps. It dramatically improves both your range and your long range accuracy (one class feature lets you make one attack as a full round action and shoot as far as your range increments allow, with no penalty on the attack roll; another class feature doubles your spot range and halves the range increment penalty). The class is flavored to be shooting from mountains or high rocky points, and the requirements represent this. The adaptation notes do mention altering the pre-reqs to fit other themes (their example is a "tree top archer"), so if your DM can work on a nautical-themed version with other requirements, go for it.

so, any questions or comments? anything you would change? anything i messed up?

Look at enhancements and weapon augment crystals in Magic Item Compendium. The Force enhancement for +2 market price is basically required for an archer, to deal with damage reduction and (arguably) to not get hosed by Wind Wall. The Splitting enhancement in Champions of Ruin is by far the most powerful thing you could put on a bow/crossbow. But your DM might balk at how crazy it is (literally doubles your attacks by splitting the ammunition, but has a hefty market price mod, +4 I think). Get Woodland Archer tactical feat from Races of the Wild, it's just SOOOOO good.

 

[Ashtagon]

Powerful build and Monkey Grip don't stack. Additionally, Monkey Grip specifically only works with melee weapons, and I don't see where you're getting powerful build from. The only races I am aware of with powerful build are the goliath and the feral gargun, both from Races of Stone.

Since a crossbow is ordinarily a two-handed weapon, you simply aren't allowed to use a larger version. However, since raw does let you use a crossbow one-handed with an attack penalty, you could wield a Large crossbow two-handed with that same penalty. Short of actually increasing your size, there's no way to wield a Huge crossbow.

Feat - Jotunbrud

(Since not many will likely know where that feat comes from)

Strictly by the wording of that feat from that web page, it doesn't actually give you the ability to wield larger weapons at all. You get treated as Large on opposed rolls where it is advantageous, and also get treated as large if advantageous for purposes of monster special attacks. Nothing about using weapons in there. Jotunbrud is strictly inferior to powerful build in that regard.

Of course, if your DM is fine with all that, go for it.

 

[Dandu]

Monkey grip sucks.

 

[statimp]

@streamofthesky

wow, lots of stuff. okay

i actually looked at being a ranger instead of a fighter but decided on the fighter for a few reasons. 1. there were feats that i wouldn't be able to get 2. it isn't what i had in mind when designing the character and 3. i am somewhat underwhelmed by the rangers spells. they are good spells, some of them are downright fantastic, but you get so few of them that i would rather just deal high consistent damage. you don't think ranged weapon specialization and mastery are good feats? that's 4 extra damage on every hit and a +3 to attack.

i do agree on taking deepwood sniper sooner. i have been playing a lot of epic campaigns lately and without knowing it i kind of designed my character to start at level 20. so there will be some rearranging of levels with what you said in mind.

i wanted able sniper because i was trying to get the best bonus to hiding after sniping possible. now that i think about it, that is kind of pointless as i will be shooting from very far away and my allies will be up in their face distracting them.

crossbow sniper adds half of your dexterity bonus to all ranged damage. the part of it you are thinking of is the bit that makes it so you can sneak attack from 60' away. so it's actually quite good

i'm using a crossbow instead of a greatbow because it will deal more damage and because it's just cooler. my character would be able to lift and use the crossbow just fine. it wouldn't have to be laying flat

@ashtagon
i just read through the rules for both monkey grip and jotunbrud. and neither of them do what i thought they did. they are close though and i'm pretty sure my DM will let it slide. and that is the magic of dungeons and dragons.

@dandu
yeah, pretty much. it has a lot of potential though with some tweaking.

okay, taking all this advice into account i'll go and fiddle with my character

 

[Dandu]

It has moderate potential with a lot of tweaking.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

i actually looked at being a ranger instead of a fighter but decided on the fighter for a few reasons. 1. there were feats that i wouldn't be able to get 2. it isn't what i had in mind when designing the character and 3. i am somewhat underwhelmed by the rangers spells. they are good spells, some of them are downright fantastic, but you get so few of them that i would rather just deal high consistent damage. you don't think ranged weapon specialization and mastery are good feats? that's 4 extra damage on every hit and a +3 to attack.

Mastery at least isn't terrible, but the Fighter levels to get it are terrible. Ranger and Deepwood Sniper give more for your archery and sniping focus.
1. Lose some of the feats. Needing a Fighter's bonus feats to get Weapon Focus--> Weapon Specialization --> Weapon Mastery is a self-fullfilling prophecy. You agree below that Able Sniper is pointless, etc... You can cut down your feat requirements to the point that Fighter is not needed, or at worst is only needed for 1-2 levels.
2. Whenever I plan out a character from level 1-20 and then actually start playing him, I never end up completely sticking to the original plan. Sometimes for optimization reasons, sometimes for roleplaying reasons. Don't be afraid to adapt.
3. You may get few of them, but you can also use wands of them. When I said Arrowmind means never having to use a melee weapon ever again, I didn't actually expect you to be able to cast it every single encounter. But wands of level 1 spells are dirt cheap. And Arrowmind lasts 1 min/CL, or in other words...long enough to win a fight. Of course, whatever spell slots you do get can find a lot of use, too. Ideally you use your spell slots for spells where a higher CL makes a difference (or if the spell is a swift or immediate action casting time), and wands for anything else.

i do agree on taking deepwood sniper sooner. i have been playing a lot of epic campaigns lately and without knowing it i kind of designed my character to start at level 20. so there will be some rearranging of levels with what you said in mind.

And do check out Cragtop Archer, too.

i wanted able sniper because i was trying to get the best bonus to hiding after sniping possible. now that i think about it, that is kind of pointless as i will be shooting from very far away and my allies will be up in their face distracting them.

Basically. Is there a reason your character hides? If he were adding sneak attack, it'd make mechanical sense. So you're basically left with fluff. Maybe he snipes because he doesn't want enemies to see his identity, and thus stays to the shadows (an alternative way to play this is the use of disguises), for example. Maybe he just gets a thrill that his targets drop dead never knowing what hit them, never expecting it.

crossbow sniper adds half of your dexterity bonus to all ranged damage. the part of it you are thinking of is the bit that makes it so you can sneak attack from 60' away. so it's actually quite good

Oh, I thought the dex to damage was range limited. If not, cheers!

i'm using a crossbow instead of a greatbow because it will deal more damage and because it's just cooler. my character would be able to lift and use the crossbow just fine. it wouldn't have to be laying flat

I should explain. One seldom noted advantage of crossbows over bows is that you can fire them while laying prone. Laying prone gives you +4 AC against ranged attacks, and in many situations might help give you cover to hide behind. I was asking if you chose crossbow over bow so as to utilize this in your concept of a sniper build.
How much more damage is the crossbow doing? Keep in mind with a bow you can keep firing without interruption, which could add up to more damage than the crossbow is giving.

@ashtagon
i just read through the rules for both monkey grip and jotunbrud. and neither of them do what i thought they did. they are close though and i'm pretty sure my DM will let it slide. and that is the magic of dungeons and dragons.

If the DM doesn't let Jotubrud give you powerful build, just use the Strongarm Bracers I mentioned, they do the same thing. In fact, in the long run 6000 gp might be "cheaper" for you than a feat slot anyway.

 

[statimp]

how does ranger give me more for my archery focus. i get less feats and the same BaB progression. that only leaves the spells. are you saying that a rangers spells more than make up for his lack of feats?

i didn't know lying prone with a crossbow did that. originally that was the plan, but he was doing it for fluff reasons not for a tactical advantage. so now he does it for both. sweet.

the reason that crossbows do more damage is purely because of the feat crossbow sniper. if there was a feat similar to it for bows then bows would be better. I'm also considering using a great crossbow with the quick reloading enchantment on it. that coupled with rapid reload would make reloading it a free action. on top of that heavy crossbows deal more damage.

i looked at cragtop archer. they are really good. i would probably only take the first 2 levels maybe 3. but that would make my character a much better sniper.

thanks for all the help.

edit: started tweaking my build. here it is

level 1: human ranger, feat: exotic weapon proficiency great crossbow and bonus feat: jotunbrud
level 2: take fighter and feat: rapid reload
level 3: feat: far shot and feat: point blank shot
level 4: +1 dex
level 5: take deepwood sniper
level 6: feat: rapid shot
level 8: +1 dex
level 9: feat: precise shot
level 12: +1 dex, feat: crossbow sniper
level 15: feat: improved precise shot
level 16: +1 dex and take cragtop archer
level 17: continue taking fighter and feat: weapon focus crossbow
level 18: feat: weapon specialization crossbow
level 19: feat weapon mastery ranged piercing
level 20: +1 dex

so i was wondering if i should move anything around. i was thinking about taking cragtop archer a little sooner but i wasn't sure. what do you think?

 

[Dandu]

how does ranger give me more for my archery focus. i get less feats and the same BaB progression. that only leaves the spells. are you saying that a rangers spells more than make up for his lack of feats?

Rangers do get some sweet spells. Hunter's Eye, for example, which grants +1d6 sneak attack / 3 caster levels or something like that.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

how does ranger give me more for my archery focus. i get less feats and the same BaB progression. that only leaves the spells. are you saying that a rangers spells more than make up for his lack of feats?

I suppose it's actually not that bad, though levels in Deepwood Sniper or Cragtop Archer are preferable as soon as they become available. Still, ranger does give a lot more skills than a Fighter level does, it's certainly worthwhile to at least go to Ranger 2, 4, or 6. 2 gives Rapid Shot, 4 opens up spellcasting and gives you an animal companion (which should be traded for an alternate class feature that's more beneficial, like Solitary Hunting), 6 gives Manyshot, which is largely unimportant on its own, but is a prereq for some other feats you might want, Improved Rapid Shot if nothing else. If Deepwood Sniper weren't allowed, I'd say Ranger is better than Fighter simply because at higher levels you get Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight, which are very valuable to a sniper (not to mention Evasion and other unique benefits). But since you're prestige classing out anyway, I guess high level class features don't matter.

i didn't know lying prone with a crossbow did that. originally that was the plan, but he was doing it for fluff reasons not for a tactical advantage. so now he does it for both. sweet.

Prone also gives you -4 AC against melee attacks, standing up from prone provokes an AoO, and you are unable to 5 ft step or move much at all. But hey, if you're fighting from hundreds or thousands of feet away, none of that really matters, right? The only attacks you'll be worried about are the enemy's ranged attacks. And yeah, crossbow and shuriken are the only types of ranged weapons that can be used while prone.

the reason that crossbows do more damage is purely because of the feat crossbow sniper. if there was a feat similar to it for bows then bows would be better. I'm also considering using a great crossbow with the quick reloading enchantment on it. that coupled with rapid reload would make reloading it a free action. on top of that heavy crossbows deal more damage.

It's a free action to reload a heavy repeating crossbow with Rapid Shot? Are you sure? Granted, you get several shots before needing to reload, but you'll still need to do so most fights. As for damage...bows can add str to damage. Granted, it gets pricy at low levels for a high str composite bow, and then you need another high ability score. But you can add your full str bonus, versus half your dex. So as long as you keep your str bonus within half of your dexterity bonus (considering the ability score enhancing items scale in price exponentially, this shouldn't be that hard), it's effectively going to be the same damage. Except without spending a feat. And no reload times at all, ever (and also saves you another feat).
Use the crossbow, it's fine, you find it cooler. Just pointing some things out.

i looked at cragtop archer. they are really good. i would probably only take the first 2 levels maybe 3. but that would make my character a much better sniper.

See if your DM can adapt it to a "Crows Nest Archer" or something and switch the Mountain Warrior feat required for some sort of naval-based one that would be more useful for your campaign. And you can wait and see how the game turns out. But to me, the real big draw of Cragtop Archer is Horizon Shot at level 4. Being able to shoot 15 range increments (assuming Arcing Shot can apply) + Far Shot and have no penalties? That's just amazing. If your DM is lame and never lets you encounter enemies far enough away for that to matter, obviously it won't be useful to you, though. I will say I see no reason to ever take the 5th level in the class.

edit: started tweaking my build. here it is

level 1: human ranger, feat: exotic weapon proficiency great crossbow and bonus feat: jotunbrud
level 2: take fighter and feat: rapid reload
level 3: feat: far shot and feat: point blank shot
level 4: +1 dex
level 5: take deepwood sniper
level 6: feat: rapid shot
level 8: +1 dex
level 9: feat: precise shot
level 12: +1 dex, feat: crossbow sniper
level 15: feat: improved precise shot
level 16: +1 dex and take cragtop archer
level 17: continue taking fighter and feat: weapon focus crossbow
level 18: feat: weapon specialization crossbow
level 19: feat weapon mastery ranged piercing
level 20: +1 dex

so i was wondering if i should move anything around. i was thinking about taking cragtop archer a little sooner but i wasn't sure. what do you think?

I'd say take Deepwood and Cragtop as early as you can, they directly aid you in your main schtick. From the progression it looks like you're only taking Cragtop Archer for 1 level, and very late. I think it's worth going to at least Cragtop Archer 3 quickly once you can enter, and then continue in Deepwood Sniper. Unless your DM's being really lame with spotting and starting distance, then I guess even Arcing Shot isn't useful.