Pitiful Monk, your speed impresses me not.

[KarinsDad]

KD:
Number 47 may be a smart alec, but he has a good point. Where does the flavor text start and the rules end? The spell says: "speed is doubled." It also says "fleet of foot." So you are saying that it only applied to ground movement. But it ALSO says "Exp. RETREAT." Why do you make the rules apply for part of the speel write-up, but not the whole write up? If you are going to play it like that, don't you have to use ALL the spell's text and intention, and say that the speed is only doubled if you are on the ground AND retreating? Why add one stipulation because of "flavor text" and no the other?
[/SIZE]

Obviously, the title of a spell is irrelevant for any spell. The (entire) description is what is relevant.

You do not think that a Fly spell turns a character into a Giant Housefly, nor do you think that Arcane Eye creates an actual eye, Awaken does not wake up animal life although even though in real life, you can only wake up animal life and not plant life (effectively), Tenser’s Floating Disk can be used by characters other than Tenser, etc.

He was being just being humorous. You, on the other hand, are being Silly Spikey.

 

[Andor]

Oh my poor hijacked thread.

 

[IceBear]

Hello little T'sa

I need to play with T'sa and W'ren again

IceBear

 

[Uller]

Obviously, the title of a spell is irrelevant for any spell. The (entire) description is what is relevant.

I'm _not_ trying to be funny here: Doesn't the ER description say something to the effect that ER can be used for "attack as well as flight(meaning retreat...not flying...context people!)?" So...taking the _entire_ description into account, does that mean that you can ONLY use it for attack or for retreating? What if you just want to win a race or something?

 

[KarinsDad]

Holding these debates ad nausim here means I am better equipped at the table. I am hands down the most knowledgable member of my group when it comes to the 3e rules(our other DM is often stuck in 2e mode and I have to jar him out of it). As a DM, this is a great plus. I can make a ruling and my players are confident that I am correct.

Yup. Course, Creepy might disagree with that for me.

Edit: Back to the topic: How do you multiply the ER and Run speed boosts? If ER allows you to move 2x your speed and running allows you to move 4x your speed, what is the end result? 8x(speed X 4 X 2) or 5x(speed X (4+1)) as per the multiple multiplier rule?

Run Speed is x6 or x8.

ER doubles your speed. Your speed is now 60 (for example).

The run action allows you to multiply your speed by 3 or 4. It is dependent on what your speed is, armor, and encumberance and not the fact that it is acquired via magic.

So, a double move would be 120 (for the example above), a run 180 or 240 depending on armor, etc.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm _not_ trying to be funny here: Doesn't the ER description say something to the effect that ER can be used for "attack as well as flight(meaning retreat...not flying...context people!)?" So...taking the _entire_ description into account, does that mean that you can ONLY use it for attack or for retreating? What if you just want to win a race or something?

It's fairly obvious that the sentence was put in (probably from a playtesting question) so that people would ignore the title. The title is cute. But, it is not the description of the spell. Note: the description does not state that it can only be used for "attack or flight".

Titles are merely titles. Does the word Uller really define everything you are? No, it is a title that allows the rest of us to understand based on experience, who we are discussing something with. Ditto for spell titles. They are mnemonic shortcuts for humans.

Unfortunately, there are always going to be people who do not take the big picture of the entire description and get caught up on single words or phrases ("doubles speed" or "attack as well as flight" or "retreat"). People cannot have it both ways. Either you take the literal context, or you take the overall context. Personally, I take what makes the most sense based on what is written.

It explicitly takes about "fleetness of foot" for great strides and leaps. It has a sentence in it "attack as well as flight" which implies it can be used for more than the "retreat" of the title (this seems like it is just put in to qualify that the double speed can be used for things other than retreat and only for that reason). It seems to discuss the entire subject with respect to a humanoid target (who typically only has a walking speed and a swimming speed). But, although it goes out of it's way to discuss running and jumping, it does not mention swimming. Why is that?

To me, it's because it is meant for walking and jumping movement only: the two movements mentioned explicitly in the spell description. YMMV and obviously does.

From the SRD:
"The character's speed and maximum jumping distances both double. These benefits count as enhancement bonuses."

It does not say creature, it says character which implies that they were thinking about humanoid characters when they wrote it up. For the Fly spell in the SRD, it says: "The spell’s subject can fly..."

 

[Uller]

Run Speed is x6 or x8.

ER doubles your speed. Your speed is now 60 (for example).

The run action allows you to multiply your speed by 3 or 4. It is dependent on what your speed is, armor, and encumberance and not the fact that it is acquired via magic.

So, a double move would be 120 (for the example above), a run 180 or 240 depending on armor, etc.

I completely agree with you...but how do you KNOW that the multiplication rule is not applicable here? I don't see anything that says this should be an exception(although it certainly "feels" like it should be).

 

[Uller]

It's fairly obvious that the sentence was put in (probably from a playtesting question) so that people would ignore the title. The title is cute. But, it is not the description of the spell. Note: the description does not state that it can only be used for "attack or flight".

Nor does it explicitly say that it can only be used for ground based walking/running with feet and legs.

What happens if it is cast on an Ooze? Does it gain "fleetness of Psuedo-pod"? Are they somehow excluded from benefitting from this spell? (Edit: of course, this is probably moot since the range of ER is personal...but surely there are some creatures out there without legs who might use this spell...maybe a Naga?)

 

[Hypersmurf]

It seems to discuss the entire subject with respect to a humanoid target (who typically only has a walking speed and a swimming speed). But, although it goes out of it's way to discuss running and jumping, it does not mention swimming. Why is that?

Humans (and all Core PC races) don't have a Swim speed. Or a Fly speed. Or a Climb speed, or a Burrow speed.

If a human wants to swim or climb, he needs to make a Swim check. Or a Climb check. And his speed while swimming is relative to his base speed. If his speed is 40, then he can swim 10 as an MEA, or 20 as a full round action, with a successful check.

A creature with a Swim speed never needs to make a check to swim. And his speed is not related to his base speed - it's solely based on his Swim speed.

So if you want to argue that only base speed is doubled by an Expeditious Retreat, then that's fine - but a human will still swim faster, because he swims relative to his base speed. The speed 40 monk with an ER now has a base speed of 80. He can swim a quarter of that, or half of that, with an MEA or FRA.

The locathah, on the other hand, has a base speed of 10 and a Swim speed of 60. ER will double his base speed to 20. Will it double his Swim speed? Your call.

A human wearing a Pearl of the Sirines has a base speed of 30 and a Swim speed of 60. ER will double his base speed to 60. Will it double his Swim speed? Your call.

-Hyp.

 

[FANGO]

In just about every spell in the SRD(PHB, whatever), it says "character" to refer to the spellcaster (or if not just about every one, then at least a significant amount of them). This does not mean that the spell can only be cast by humanoids. There are ways to add character levels to all sorts of creatures (table in the DMG...unicorn for example, and also the sections in the MM where it says "(such and such) characters" in the monster entry (orc is one example, can't think of a non-humanoid but that's just because I haven't looked). If you want to use that reasoning, then you could say that every monster in the MM can't cast spells in the PHB (or at least not ones that mention "character"...nightmare, for an example from a current debate on these boards (according to KD's reasoning, that lich shouldn't even be casting that spell, since he's not a character!)), because they were "thinking about humanoid characters" when designing them.

If you're going to take all flavor text into account when assessing a spell, then how about we do that with races too? Example: "Dwarven culture extols the virtue of the warrior, and the vocation comes easily to dwarves." I suppose this means that dwarves have warrior as a favored class, rather than fighter? I know it's not a wonderful example, but for a simple glance at my PHB it shows that it isn't very hard to find an incidence of flavor text apparently contradicting mechanics.

It is blindingly obvious that expeditious retreat affects all speeds. It says it in the SRD, it says it in the PHB, and it's not unbalancing in the slightest. I honestly can't believe that there is any debate on this subject.d