PJ's LotR: non-flame-based discussion on what bothered you about it

[Dr Midnight]

Okay. This is an old topic, but it's never one that comes up without some flames. I, and most of us here, loved Peter Jackson's Fellowship of the Ring. That's not in question. Discussion of even the film's flaws is an exercise of that love. I'd like to hear what bothered you about it.

Now- mind you- we've all heard these in defense of the flaws:
-You can't make a film without changing some things.
-You can't fit all that into three hours, and PJ did what he needed to.
-Film and literature are two different mediums.
-Could YOU do better?

We've ALL heard them, and we all know them. If you've got something like this to say, please stow it in the overhead. I'd like to know from you what you think PJ did in the film that DIDN'T HAVE to be changed from the books. Little things, big things... whatever bugged you.

See this page for a good analysis of what was changed

For me, I can list these off the top of my head-

-Gimli's role as the stuffy, funny dwarf was a bit much. Gimli is a noble character, and I feel he only got one Gimli-worthy line in the film: "Let them come! There is yet one dwarf in Moria who still draws breath..." The "Nobody tosses a dwarf" line was just unnecessary. Who can argue that?

-Cutting Galadriel's gift-giving scene is what bothers me the most. Gimli's character gets perhaps his biggest scene here, and we see a lot of items that will help the Fellowship in hard times. I can't wait to see the extended version.

-We could have used something explaining WHY Gollum knows of Bilbo and the Shire... As it is, we only know that Bilbo found Gollum's ring. No mention of the meeting was made, save for how it was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand (to kill Gollum).

-I really disagree with PJ's decision to stage a wizards' battle using non-stereotypical magic. The slamming around with the staves really turned me off. I don't need to see fireballs, but... I certainly don't need to see them doing wrestling moves at twenty feet apart.

Discuss, and please remember: Things that bugged you that have nothing (or little) to do with translating book to film or condensing for time.

 

[RatPunk]

The one thing that bugged me the most, other than the deletion of the gift giving scene, is when Saruman has just blocked their passage on Caradras and they're arguing about whether or not to go through Moria.

When Gandalf says "We'll let the Ring bearer decide", that just didn't sit well with me. For some reason it just strkes me as a most un-Gandalf-ish thing for him to do at that moment.

Of course it still doesn't affect my enjoyment of the movie...

 

[durath]

One thing that was changed and I don't know why is the bar scene in Bree.

In the book Frodo actually gets up on a table to distract attention away from Pippin and strats to sing a goofy song. He eventually loses his balance on the table, falls, and inadvertently the ring pops on his finger and that is how he disappears in the inn.

A minor change to be sure, but I just don't know why it was changed at all.

I also second the comments on Bilbo& Gollum. A little more explaining would've been nice. No one I know that hasn't read the books understands that part.

Along the same lines, I think they really glossed over the way Isildur was betrayed by the ring to his death as he swam away from the orcs.

I wish they hadn't cut Gloin from the film. I'm sure he is one of the unnamed Dwarves at the council of Elrond but in the book he has a couple of lines and it would've been a neat nod to the backstory of the hobbit to include it.

I did not care for the alteration made to story in Moria. The part I'm specifically rfeferring to is the escape from Balin's tomb. In the book the fellowship escapes through a back door and the Balrog is already almost on them. Gandalf tells them to flee and attempts to hold the door shut with a warding spell of some sort. The fellowship flees down a stairwell and soon after gandalf gets knocked down towards them and is very tired.

I would've much preferred that to running across an open expanse, and goblins crawling around like spiders to surround them from above and below.

Finally, why at the gate of Moria was it changed to Frodo figuring out the riddle on the door? Another unnecessary change.

Things that I'm glad to see restored in the extended DVD-

-gift giving in Lothlorien
-Frodo and Sam seeing the band of elves heading for the grey havens when they had first set off to Bree.

 

[Villano]

-I really disagree with PJ's decision to stage a wizards' battle using non-stereotypical magic. The slamming around with the staves really turned me off. I don't need to see fireballs, but... I certainly don't need to see them doing wrestling moves at twenty feet apart.

Yeah, the battle was kind of boring. They didn't need to summon any dragons or anything, but just getting knocked down over and over again was monotonous.

Actually, if anything, it reminded me of some kind of jedi force battle. Well, the way the force was portrayed before Lucas went crazy with the lightning.

And, just from a cinemagraphic standpoint, I absolutely hated that scene where the heroes march past the camera in slo-mo as the "heroic" music blares. That was so ham handed as to be embarrassing. It was really beneath Jackson's abilities.

 

[madriel]

I wasn't impressed with the duel in the Orthanc either. It just didn't work for me although I really don't know how PJ could've done better without using cheesy FX to illustrate the battle.

I really wish they'd left in the gift giving at Lothlorien. I'm glad they restored it to the director's cut.

I didn't like the fact that Frodo just falls down and crawls away from the Nazgul at Weathertop. In the book he attacked them before being stabbed. The movie made him a lot more passive than the books.

 

[333 Dave]

I would have loved to see Frodo's song & dance number in the Prancing Pony. Or at least had Frodo start talking to Strider then having Strider point out Pippen's slip of the tounge.

 

[Holy Bovine]

One thing that was changed and I don't know why is the bar scene in Bree.

In the book Frodo actually gets up on a table to distract attention away from Pippin and strats to sing a goofy song. He eventually loses his balance on the table, falls, and inadvertently the ring pops on his finger and that is how he disappears in the inn.

I could actually understand this as the Prancing Pony in the movie seems a much more rough-and-tumble place than the one described in the book. Frodo singing and dancing in such an atmosphere would have seemed very out of place to me.

Of course that brings up the question as to why the Prancing Pony was changed into this rougher setting. Again i feel this was necessary. I feel Jackson was trying to show the stark difference between the Shire and the human lands. The Shire always seems warm and inviting but Bree, dominated by humans (note the surprise of the doorman at seeing 4 hobbits at the main gates) is much more dangerous simply because humans are much more dangerous.

Finally, why at the gate of Moria was it changed to Frodo figuring out the riddle on the door? Another unnecessary change.

Unnecessary? I don't think so. IMO this was to show that the Hobbits (particularly Frodo) are much more clever than anyone suspects. Frodo solves the riddle when great and wise Gandalf cannot - its admirably shows his 'hobbit-sense' without resorting to him slaying the Cave Troll single-handedly or some such.

Things that I'm glad to see restored in the extended DVD-

-gift giving in Lothlorien
-Frodo and Sam seeing the band of elves heading for the grey havens when they had first set off to Bree.

Agreed. The gift-giving scene really should have been in there (we could easily have lost some, if not all of the footage of Orcs running, Frodo standing on shore crying and Sam's lameassed 'drowning scene (that one I particularily loathe BTW)at the end of the movie and added the 2-3 minutes of screen time the full gift-giving would have taken. (but not that )

And seeing the Elves going to the Gray Havens (and maybe even Frodo telling Sam - 'The Elves are leaving us Sam' or something just to give a small sense to the changes being wrought in the world around them, and that hobbits are not all back-country bumpkins - again something the Moria gate scene demostrates as well).

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

A reasonable question, set to reasonable parameters.
I'm game.

- - -

I do believe the cluster of buildings and the mill in the water were the heart of the village of Bywater, not Hobbiton.
Hobbiton was a mile away, up the road.
(A mile to us might be that streetlight up the road, but to the hobbits a mile was a considerable distance.)

I would have liked to have seen more of Bree besides it's main road, seen from ground level.

I know that there is snow in New Zealand at unusual times of the year (such as when everything is still green.)
That is not true of Eriador, except in the very far north and northeast, however.

Amon Sul should have been higher up; a larger hill should have been underneath it.
After all, Weathertop was a fairly big hill, not a hillock.

Sam, Merry, and Pippin are inexperienced, but not stupid - why would they light a fire on Amon Sul when they knew the Ringwraiths were hunting them?

Would someone explain to me why Elrond agreed to his only daughter going out to give battle, alone and unaided, against Sauron's mightiest servants?
If he did not agree to it and she went of her own will, he could have at least sent some of his servants out to help her.

Rivendell is slowly emptying of elves, but it is not empty yet.
Where were all the elves of Rivendell, when we were in Rivendell?
It is not the Last Homely House if it is not filled with elven music, laughter, song, and more solemn elven conversations!

Uh ... since when did Aragorn choose exile?
And if he did, why did he choose exile?

Why didn't Gandalf tell Frodo there was a Balrog in Moria, before he asked him to decide whether or not the party should GO to Moria?
Frodo deserved the right to make an informed decision here!

Dwarrowdelve was truly beautiful, but one cannot put a house down amidst a sea of columns ... or can one?
I am left wondering the exact purpose of the vast chamber of pillars (did they put shops up here? Smithies? Governmental institutions? Did they build all those columns for show? What?)

It seems odd for Galadriel to say:
The Quest stands on the edge of a knife ...
Then to say almost immediately after:
Do not let your hearts be troubled.

I wish Galadriel had explained to Frodo more throughly why she could not help him (care to come along with me to Mordor and lend a helping hand?)

It would have been nice if someone had LISTENED when Legolas spoke of his feelings ... in Moria, Legolas proved his feelings to be worth the time and trouble to hear out (we cannot linger, said he)

 

[Prince Atom]

Sam, Merry, and Pippin are inexperienced, but not stupid - why would they light a fire on Amon Sul when they knew the Ringwraiths were hunting them?

Maybe Peter Jackson was trying to show them as fairly naive? They are after all in the wide world for the first time. I'm sure they'll get more canny as the movies progress. Other than that, you're right, they should have had a cold camp if they know the Nazgul are after them.

Would someone explain to me why Elrond agreed to his only daughter going out to give battle, alone and unaided, against Sauron's mightiest servants?

Maybe Elrond trusted in his daughter's abilities. What help did she need? She got away, didn't she? And all she got was a cosmetic scratch on the cheek. Besides, if you cut out most of the Rivendell sequence, there's nothing to show her relationship with Aragorn -- and if she'd just shown up for that love scene, we'd all be wondering where she came from.

Why didn't Gandalf tell Frodo there was a Balrog in Moria, before he asked him to decide whether or not the party should GO to Moria?

Did Gandalf know there was a Balrog in Moria? IIRC he was unaware of it in the book. If he said something other in the movie, it escaped me. I can't remember him exclaiming, "It's the Balrog! I'd hoped to avoid its attentions."

BTW, Legolas starts shaking like a bunny in the book. Were any of them particularly scared in the movie? The Elfs have a name for the Balrog (of course) but I can't remember it.

I am left wondering the exact purpose of the vast chamber of pillars (did they put shops up here? Smithies? Governmental institutions? Did they build all those columns for show? What?)

I once saw an artist's impression of the king's hall from an ancient Middle Eastern palace (Abyssinian? Maybe Syrian?) and it was all columns. Huge things, a forest of them. I think such things are for show and to be impressive. Either that or the Dwarfs had a great big cavern that needed supports

It would have been nice if someone had LISTENED when Legolas spoke of his feelings ... in Moria, Legolas proved his feelings to be worth the time and trouble to hear out (we cannot linger, said he)

When did they ignore Legolas? Was this after Lorien? Please enlighten me.

And I'll give props to two complaints: Where was Gimli, first, and why did they skip the gifts at Lorien, second. I would have liked to have seen more of Gimli. As it is, he comes across as no more rounded than the dwarf in the D&D movie.

I'm going to have to get a DVD player one of these days....

TWK
I'm going to have to get DVDs one of these days....

 

[blaster219]

Got the DVD of it last week. Gonna have to wait till november for the EXTENDED DVD version with 30 mins extra footage. Including the infamously cut gift scene and the elves retreating to the Grey Haven.