PJ's LotR: non-flame-based discussion on what bothered you about it

the noise noise noise the hooters, bleaters and zing zangers
PJ it a movie not a early 80 scooby/ spiderman and amazinf friends episodes.
You DON"T have to have music in each scence to where I can't hear the actors.

Here we go with a flying pan shot again
and again
and again
and again
 

log in or register to remove this ad


I was slightly mistaken. But Gandalf does ride out of the gates with the men of Gondor and he does unleash a "white light" from his hands and it specifically says the Nazgul flee his "white flame". I remember that.

I think the battle with the Balrog would be awesome on film.

And I don't believe Gandalf even really understands what happened to him when he lay there dying. He had partial amnesia, if I recall correctly. Although its been years since I read the trilogy. But the Valar resurrecting him sounds right.
 

Dragonblade said:
I was slightly mistaken. But Gandalf does ride out of the gates with the men of Gondor and he does unleash a "white light" from his hands and it specifically says the Nazgul flee his "white flame". I remember that.

I think the battle with the Balrog would be awesome on film.

And I don't believe Gandalf even really understands what happened to him when he lay there dying. He had partial amnesia, if I recall correctly. Although its been years since I read the trilogy. But the Valar resurrecting him sounds right.

Yes, but "flame" and "fire" are frequent metaphors for spirirt and soul in Tolkien, and many great contests (such as when Gandalf deals with Saruman at Orthanc) a very subtle and understated in terms of visuals.

And the Valar don't resureect him, they restore him in a different form: he is after all, a Maia spirit.
 

A comment here:

It would seem to me that the word Stature is the word that best applies to many things in Middle Earth.

For example, when a hobbit makes a sword, it is a sword.
When a dwarf makes a sword, it is a really, really fine sword, because dwarves are really, really fine sword-makers.

When a Noldorian Elf makes a sword, it is a + 3 to + 5 magical weapon.
Not because the elf is skilled in sword-making (although he might well be skilled) but because he has Stature.

Frodo's mithril armor was made by the dwarves, who infused their magic in it, and it would withstand blows that no normal mail could hope to withstand (in the film, it could protect it's wearer from the force of blows, as well as their piercing capabilities.)
However, Frodo's sword, Sting, was made by the Noldor, and by the mere fact they made the thing, it is powerful, gleams when orcs are about, and will sheer through things other blades cannot (such as the webs of Shelob.)

It was this Stature that made the Noldor capable of taking on Morgoth, and crushing his armies in the Battle Under the Stars and the Glorious Battle.
It was this Stature that enabled the Noldor to partially withstand Morgoth in the great Battle of Sudden Flame.

(If Morgoth had been around in Frodo's time, and he had unleashed a force like the force unleashed in the Battle of Sudden Flame upon Gondor, Lothlorien, Dale, etc., it would have been all over. Over. Finis. And the finis would have been a matter of only a few days.)

Unfortunately, orcs have Stature as well.
And that Stature can be INCREASED, if Sauron puts forth his power to will it, and Sauron does just that, in ROTK.
Of course, some orcs will always have lesser stature, and the maggots (the orcs of Moria, as Ugluk likes to call them) have less Stature than the Apes of Lugburz (as Ugluk calls the orcs of Mordor.)

Even more unfortunately, the Stature of the Nazgul can be increased, and their Stature does increase - GREATLY - in TTT, and then increases greatly again in ROTK.
In FOTR, the Lord of the Nazgul walks through Bree, and everyone shivers at a sudden fear and stays indoors.
In ROTK, if the Lord of the Nazgul had walked though Bree, EVERYONE in Bree would have either:

Run, and kept running until they fell from exhaustion (those of strong heart.)
Thrown themselves on the ground, and thought only of hiding, and crawling, and weeping (if they were typical Breelanders.)
Killed themselves in their fear (if they were weaker of heart.)

And here is where the Ring comes in.

If Sauron regains the Ring, he regains Stature.
His Nazgul, have their stature MASSIVELY increased (to paraphrase Gandalf: they are only a shadow of the terror and power they would possess if the Ring was on their Master's Hand once again.)
His orcs would massively increase in stature.
Everyone serving Sauron (such as the Men of Rhun and Harad) would have a sudden increase in stature, not to mention Sauron's domination over their minds would become much more complete.

Gil Galad and Elendil and their forces had the Stature to face Sauron and the Ring.
The Free World does not have that kind of Stature in it anymore, so if Sauron gets the Ring, finis for Middle Earth.

So, Gandalf the White rides against the Nazgul, and he pits his strength against theirs, and here it is a question of Stature.
The Nazgul decide this version of Gandalf is too much for them, and decide to let their leader deal with him instead.

For what it's worth, Frodo gained Stature during the story.
Frodo gained a vast amount of Stature - enough that perhaps he could be accounted one of the Wise, in the end.
Saruman saw it, and even respected it, before the end, whereas the hobbits could not perceive what had happened.

- - -

So no, the elves do not use magic per se.
Galadriel pointed out to Frodo that she did not understand what he meant by magic, and confused what the elves did with what the servants of the enemy did, and called them both by that name.

Galadriel's Mirror was the product Stature.
Galadriel's sudden overawing appearance (both in the book and especially in the film) is the result of manifested Stature.
Caras Galadon was built because the elves had the Stature to do so.
Gondolin was the great city it was, because the Noldor were mighty in Stature.
Barad-Dur is the colossal fortress IT is, because of the Stature of Sauron.

To a lesser extent, Dwarrowdelve is the magnificent city it is because of dwarven Stature, but it would be much more appropriate to say: Dwarrowdelve is the magnificent city it is, because the dwarves built it that way, being the greatest of underground craftsmen.
Stature applies less to dwarves by far than to even Nandirian elves, much less Noldorian elves.
Stature applies to most men less than it even does to dwarves.

The Numenorians once had great Stature, almost equal to the Noldor, but they threw it all away over centuries of foolish thinking, and even more foolish deeds.
The Dunedain inherited the remnant of the Stature of the Numenorians, but they too slowly threw it away, until Arnor passed into history and Gondor dwindled into a ghostly shadow of what it had been.

Yet Aragorn still had Stature, and much of this came from his genuine reverence for, and understanding of, the reality of the West and the folly of his kinsmen.
That Stature enabled Aragorn to defeat Lurtz (in my opinion, at least), and it helped Aragorn win the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and Aragorn's Stature was one of the key reasons why he could contest with Sauron for the Palantir, and why Sauron became afraid and went to war prematurely.

As for the One Ring: the greater the Stature of the person wearing it, the greater the power it conferred to that person, and the greater the lure of the Ring to that person (and, if the One Ring was actively used, the faster the corruption of that person.)
As Boromir finally realized, the Stature of the One Ring was greater than his own, and greater than any being who was not Sauron's equal in Stature - such as Tom Bombadil (Stature is why Bombadil could tell Willow Trees to go to sleep, and they did. Tom Bombadil's Stature is why he could tell Barrow-Wights to go away, and THEY did.)

It's all about Stature.

Trying to fit Stature with the D&D magic system is like putting a square block into a circle sized hole.
It won't work.

(For that matter, roleplaying in Middle Earth won't work, unless everyone plays characters of comparable Stature. Why play a human or dwarf when the elf over there can do everything bigger and better by default?)
 

The Wizard's Duel...

Now, it always seemed to me, that subtle magic was powerful magic... Why inefficienctly waste your magical energies on superficial noise and lights, is you don;t have to? That sort of fireworks might impress a horde of cave-bound orcs, or a pack of slavering Worgs, or a crowd of Hobbits at a party, but I doubt Saruman the White, chief of the Valar, would bat an eye at it. Both Saruman and Gandalf are easily powerful enough to control and focus all of their power into their magic without "leaking" extraneous sparks and bangs.

My biggest complaint about that fight is that it seemed a cheap rip off of the duel between Queen Bavmorda and Fin Raziel at the end of Willow.
 
Last edited:


In reply to the discussions of Sam, Merry and Pippin's stupidity in lighting a fire on Weathertop in the film, it is only what happened in the book...

"Down in the lowest sheltered corner of the dell they (Frodo,Sam,Merry, Pippin AND Strider) lit a fire, and prepared a meal."

and later :

"As night fell and the light of the fire began to shine out brightly he (Strider) began to tell them tales to keep their minds from fear"

Not much earlier there is a passage discussing the fact that the Black Riders cannot actually see (though their steeds can) and of course they are repelled by fire as a manifestation of nature, so either could explain why Strider thought it okay to light a fire (albeit in a more hidden place than the movie, which could have been on the opposite side of the hill to the road?)

So in essence the film does not really deviate too far from the book...

Also in Moria (direct quote) :

Gandalf : "A Balrog. Now I understand. What evil fortune! And I am already weary!"

This pretty much says that Gandalf didn't know that Durin's Bane was a Balrog. Perhaps no-one did since any who saw it may have been annihilated, or perhaps the dwarves, as such an insular race, did not tell outsiders of the beast that brought the jewel of their labours into darkness.

Next :

The 'ham-fisted' procession of the Fellowship. I just saw some of Saving Private Ryan, which has two similar scenes - if it's good enough for Speilberg, then why not PJ ? ;)
 

Gallowglass said:


Yes, but "flame" and "fire" are frequent metaphors for spirirt and soul in Tolkien, and many great contests (such as when Gandalf deals with Saruman at Orthanc) a very subtle and understated in terms of visuals.


Yeah, but there are certainly instances where magic use was anything but subtle. Such as the fire pellets he threw at the worgs in The Hobbit, or his battle with the Balrog:

The Two Towers: The White Rider -

There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.'"

Here is Gandalf riding out to rescue Faramir:

The Return of the King, Chapter IV, The Siege of Gondor:

"ut one rider outran them all, swift as the wind in the grass: Shadowfax bore him, shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his upraised hand.
The Nazgul screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe.'


Emphasis mine.

While I think there are certainly different ways of interpreting this, I think that Tolkien showed that when there was great need, Gandalf (and the other wizards) could, and would, unleash some pyrotechnics.

Another often overlooked flashy bit of magic in Lord of the Rings (the books) is Gandalf's fireworks. As the bearer of the Elven Ring of Fire, these seemed to have at least been enhanced by magical means.
 
Last edited:

(a bit of humor)

Why do I get the impression that Tolkien would not have approved of a D&D interpretation of his Works???

You know the story:

Gandalf and Saruman firing various multicolored evocation spells of destruction.
Elven Academies of Wizardry spouting elven mages and magistresses who took on the Black Riders with brightly colored magics.
The Black Riders hurling back darkly colored beams of necromancy.
Gandalf swinging his staff about, hurling fireballs and lightning bolts and disintegrates at various orcs, trolls, and nazgul.
The men of Minas Tirith having prepared magical Fire Trap defenses all over their city, and with scrolls of Meteor Swarm readied on the walls (along with a few Protection from Fears.)

That sort of thing.

I cannot be sure, for Tolkien is dead and I cannot ask him ... but I do believe he might not have approved.

In fact, I do believe that, if Peter Jackson had done FOTR that way, Tolkien would have come out of his grave as a Revenant, walked across the seafloors of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, stomped up into New Zealand, put his skeletal hands around a certain someone's neck, and choked the poor guy to death.
 

Remove ads

Top