"Planar Handbook" - completlely useless?

[Incenjucar]

1) PlHB is garbage. They tease you with a write-up on Sigil, then flip-off the setting that spawned Sigil (of course, this is the official WotC game plan. They want to take PS-used material in a 'new direction'. Which includes making modrons not exist at all, ever, and making the Lady known as a female creature with an alignment that doesn't fit -- my guess its the same people who made unintelligent undead Evil). They introduce a really great idea, and impliment it in the most illogical fashion. I, personally, just refuse to buy it, many others are returning it.

2) CW was an example of how not to do a book, BUT, it had enough juicy ideas and tidbits that it's worthwhile for SOME people. The Style feats and such are something people have been wanting for awhile (and most want many many more). It's just that they threw in a bunch of waste as well. And, of course, the Swashbuckler, while a fairly weak class, is beloved simply for BEING a swashbuckler. Also, Hexblades. Hexblades are just cool ideas, or so many feel.

3) I, personally, find the notion of "PrCs for NPCs" concept. A DM can give any character any ability. What we need are books full of just ABILITIES (like rend and pounce, as well). Tools to use for building creatures and characters, with possible flavor advice for when to use it. But that's going to be worth so much more for our money. How To books make splats obsolete.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Prestige classes are just "advanced character classes" these days, power-ups for people to power-game.

I am sick and tired of seeing asinine comments like this here and everywhere else on the gods-damned Internet.

Prestige classes, like every other damn thing in the game, are whatever a gaming group make of them.

Get the Hell over it.

 

[Ryltar]

Still, his basic point is valid. Save Eberron and some of the regional FR books, which recently featured the excellent Serpent Kingdoms, WotC has not published a single book this year which I would have deemed really creative and/or inspiring. The main bunch of ideas I use in my campaigns instead are derived from books by third party publishers, such as Midnight, Scarred Lands, Darwin's World II, Bluffside ... WotC's policy of simply stating "everyone's a player" kinda ignores the fact, that without a DM, there's no way to play ...

(well, maybe that's what they're gonna change in 4e )

 

[MerricB]

Still, his basic point is valid. Save Eberron and some of the regional FR books, which recently featured the excellent Serpent Kingdoms, WotC has not published a single book this year which I would have deemed really creative and/or inspiring.

Let's look at what you just said: Wizards have published books this year that you deem to be really creative and inspiring.

I think that's a win for Wizards.

There's this idiotic mentality around here that "Every book Wizards publishes must be useful for my game!"

It'd be really nice if that was true, but it's an impossibility.

What we need Wizards to do is produce books that are profitable enough so that D&D continues into the future.

Wizards have made their plan for the future extremely plain: they will create several different lines of books, with the intention that if someone likes one book in the line, they're more likely to pick up other books in the line.

I think it's likely that the Planar Handbook should be considered as another book in the line that includes Complete Warrior and Complete Divine, that is, the "Player's Guide to..." series.

Now, I know that there are lots of people who don't like those books, and fair enough. However, I also know there are people who do like those books. So, have Wizards sold enough of them to make them profitable? I wager they have.

So, the "Player's Guide..." series doesn't appeal to you? What then? What books would appeal to you?

Hopefully, Wizards will produce some books of that nature for you. And, of course, they also have allowed other people to produce books for D&D that do appeal to you. Beyond Countless Doorways is a perfect example of that!

Now, brainstorming ideas for book types that Wizards haven't produced is a great idea. Either a Wizards employee will happen by and say "that looks like a good idea" and use it as inspiration, or perhaps one of the d20 System writers will make use of it. (Or, even better, both!)

Cheers!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

From a non-WotC perspective Arcana Unearthed from Monte Cook was touted as an alternet PH, but really it's an idea generator for DMs and players alike.

Indeed - And the Legacy of Dragons did also create several ideas - and not only that, many of these ideas can be easily integrated in my current Diamond Throne campaign ...

 

[Nisarg]

I am sick and tired of seeing asinine comments like this here and everywhere else on the gods-damned Internet.

Prestige classes, like every other damn thing in the game, are whatever a gaming group make of them.

Get the Hell over it.

If a sourcebook came out that had a statted 1-handed sword that did 2d20 damage, you could likewise argue that this sword is "whatever your group makes of it"; however, that would not overlook the clear design-intent to make it a souped-up version of a standard weapon.

Likewise, when I criticize prestige classes, I'm criticising them on the design basis.. as in MOST COMPANIES, INCLUDING WOTC, DON'T SEEM TO REMEMBER WHAT PrCS WERE MEANT TO DO. They were MEANT to be highly specialized classes that reflected a particular in-story organization, dedication, etc, that was not inherently more powerful than a regular class, only differently-oriented.
Instead, what they have TURNED OUT TO BE is almost always "advanced character classes". The "regular Warforged" isn't superpowerful enough, ok let's make you the "Warforged Juggernaut". The regular high-level paladin isn't powerful enough for your tastes? Ok, you've got the "Divine Champion!". The high-level wizard doesn't cast enough for you? Ok, you've got the er..er..um.. "super-casting Wizard!".. yeah, that's good.. tack on a couple of justifications, and bingo, you've got one more thing to sell to the rubes.

And of course, each new book has to offer something previous books didn't.. in other words the Prestige Classes and feats have to be KEWLER than they were in the last book, with more Leet Powerz to keep everyone satisfied.

Can a DM ignore all this in his campaign? OF COURSE.
Does that bear any relation to what I'm talking about? NOT IN THE LEAST.
My point is a criticism of certain design choices being made by D20 publishers, it has nothing to do with actual play, as you will find I'm a defender in general of D20, D&D and the intelligence of the average D20 player. I had to soak up a lot of fireball-damage on RPG.net on account of it, so I hardly feel the need to prove my brand loyalty to the likes of you.

Nisarg

 

[Ryltar]

Hi Merric,

Let's look at what you just said: Wizards have published books this year that you deem to be really creative and inspiring.
I think that's a win for Wizards.

There's this idiotic mentality around here that "Every book Wizards publishes must be useful for my game!"

Aren't we being a little too harsh here? Yes, I was talking about my game, but as you can tell, I'm not alone with this opinion. My statement even holds true from a player's standpoint. You can't tell me that players are happy with the way Wizards are handling their publications. What makes an original character concept is not the umpteenth feat or yet another spell, but rather his background, origins, mannerisms etc - and there has been decidedly too little of that in WotC books for a long time now. Yes, I know that starting the old fluff vs. crunch argument again is a can o' worms, but that's how I see it. The current system advocates to think more about your character's feat and spell selection than to think about his background, which I think is a mistake per se.

The FR books were useful in a certain kind of way: to derive ideas from. I don't expect each and every book to come out to be exactly what I am looking for - but I expect every book to come out to at least hold partial use for my campaign, if it is advertised as a "general", not setting-specific book.

What we need Wizards to do is produce books that are profitable enough so that D&D continues into the future.

The last thing I'd want to do is deny WotC their success. But your statement does correspond with mine in a certain way: books need to be profitable enough so that the d&d line may be continued. I honestly don't think that books which do nothing but annoy the DM fall under these criteria - as someone else stated already in this thread, it also has been my experience that DMs buy 90% of the books used in any given campaign.

So, the "Player's Guide..." series doesn't appeal to you? What then? What books would appeal to you?

I wouldn't have anything against the "Player's Guide ..." concept, if it would only prove more of a resource for ideas. Example: Don't just include a prestige class, give me three to four pages of ideas in which context this class might be used (not saying I'd definitely use that background, then, but it would give me a place to start my own ideas). Don't just do the same old feats which only seem to serve PG players these days, but make them original and more flavor-y (the tactical feats in CW were quite good in that regard).

Hopefully, Wizards will produce some books of that nature for you. And, of course, they also have allowed other people to produce books for D&D that do appeal to you. Beyond Countless Doorways is a perfect example of that!

That's why BCD is on my "must have" list .

Now, brainstorming ideas for book types that Wizards haven't produced is a great idea. Either a Wizards employee will happen by and say "that looks like a good idea" and use it as inspiration, or perhaps one of the d20 System writers will make use of it. (Or, even better, both!)

You've got a point there. Perhaps the fact that few companies have done so yet only has to do with the players not clearly stating what they're looking for. But this calls for a new thread ...

Bye,
Ryltar

 

[MerricB]

Example: Don't just include a prestige class, give me three to four pages of ideas in which context this class might be used (not saying I'd definitely use that background, then, but it would give me a place to start my own ideas).

You know, the silly thing about this thread is this: the Planar Handbook does that more than the other books in the "Player's Guide..." series

Sure, it's only half a page for each organisation & prestige class pair, but it's a huge amount more than the other books I've seen. Particularly of note are the two items of "Lore" for each organisation that make good campaign/adventure seeds.

For instance, the Lore of the Doomguard talks about a mythical "Song of Dissolution" that the Doomguard search for. Those that have it would be destruction incarnate. (Yes, I had a couple of players whose eyes lit up at that...)

Now, Planescape devotees may have read this before, but they don't represent the majority of D&D players - there will be plenty of people to whom this is new.

Heh.

(Incidentally, I don't count the Planar Handbook as being a perfect book, but neither do I consider it being completely worthless.)

I have created that thread of ideas for books, incidentally!

Cheers!

 

[Ryltar]

Sure, it's only half a page for each organisation & prestige class pair, but it's a huge amount more than the other books I've seen. Particularly of note are the two items of "Lore" for each organisation that make good campaign/adventure seeds.

Is this the time to reminisce about ye good olde 2e days? Yes, I believe so.

Now, Planescape devotees may have read this before, but they don't represent the majority of D&D players - there will be plenty of people to whom this is new.

You may just have nailed the problem on the head there, as I would definitely qualify for the PS Devotee PrC. No, seriously: I can see how this book would be of use to someone who's never heard of the planes before - even to a DM who wants to start his first ever adventure there may derive some ideas from the setting. But for everyone who's at least heard of Planescape, this book is not worth buying IMHO ...

(and they got sooooo many things "wrong" - wrong being subjective, of course ).

Well, one may always hope that some gaming publisher reads your new thread and gets some inspiration from that.

 

[MerricB]

I wonder if the Planar Handbook could have ever worked for both the Planescape fan and the non-Planescape fan?

Wizards couldn't assume that everyone (or even most) of the people buying the Planar Handbook had Planescape already. It's really more "Inspired by Planescape" than anything else - and like both "I, Robot" and "Troy" that doesn't equate to much in the eyes of the fans of the original material.

Cheers!