"Planar Handbook" - completlely useless?

[jester47]

the domains of the gods, the pillars of creation, can finally actually look like something other than a mid-nineties grunge/punk house party.

... ....

(which again, I'll admit is really very good once you strip it of the gen-x crimes against fashion)
Nisarg

Judging by you constant attack against 90's and 80's fashion (and "gen-x" in general) I can only suppose that you think that the late seventies/early eighties look that is so popular these days would work better with D&D and the outer planes. Lemures in Lesiure Suits? Babus with butterfly collars? Gods in Golf pants? Rogue Modrons with Nike Zoom waffles? Petitioners in Plaid Shirts? The Emo Energon?

The planes being the crossroads of the multiverse would have some really weird fashions. Gen-x had some really weird fashions. They go hand in hand.

In that respect, I think the best people to pick up the planescape liscense is Sword and Sorcery Studios/White Wolf. Can't get more Gen X fashion than those guys. Hasbro has a number behind their back and the profit from PS might not make it. But licensing it out would not make enough either. I think the IP would make more money than many realise, and WotC knows this. Hence the high price. Thus no license to a third party, thus no dev from WotC.

Aaron.

 

[Pants]

Can't get more Gen X fashion than those guys.

Unfortunately for the art though...

 

[jester47]

I LIKE SPIKES.

(ripped from I LIKE IKE)

A.

 

[Pants]

Well... that was focusing more on the fact that WW products usually have sucktacular art not the issue of spikes.

 

[fanboy2000]

Did someone say my name 3 times?

You like the word fanboy so much, I have another word for you; strawman.

You know, I haven't seen WotC actually say Planescape isn't profetable. I'm sure they've at least implied it in something they've said, but I can't think of where they've actually said it.

Lets take a look at the Campaign II poll again. Planescape is almost tied with FR for 1st. That's a lot right? Well, that's 10% of the votes. Of course, in relailty, if all those campaign settings were getting suport, many of us would buy supplements for more than one setting. But, because many of us are poor or have real world comitments, we would be able to buy most of the books for a given setting. So, while 10% of the respondants said they would buy planescape suplemtnts, how many of them would buy every one. A few, to be sure, and I expect a few posts saying "I would!" But the division among the fan base would casue sales for all the books to go down. And I think that's the real problem, its not that Plansscape is unprofetable, its that some populer settings have to be sacraficed so WotC can focus it's efforts.

I find it suprising that people are making a distintion between the Great Wheel and Planescape. While I reconized the difrence in the kind of books (books about alternet realities vs books about a setting set in The Planes), I simply didn't see a diffrence. When I read the 3e Manual of the Planes, I saw the Great Wheel as a new map for Planescape. MoP talked about Sigil, there was a sentance about the factions, I remember a Dragon artical were some of the factions were given PrC (reprint material anyone ) So it just seemed natural to me.

If I were a compulsive gambler, I'd bet that it didn't even ocure to any of the game designers on the Planer Handbook that fans would make a distition between the Great Wheel of 3e and Planescape, and thus be upset when PS material was refered to or discussed with out the rest of the setting.

It just seems strange to me to get mad at WotC for including some of PS in products about the planes. It's what they do with other books, they include Greyhawk material in books that arn't, technically, about Greyhawk.

 

[Nisarg]

Where did you see anyone demanding, or even suggesting that the new planar material be exclusively Planescape? I don't see that. What I do see is people taking issue with the wotc saying that a new PS book wouldn't sell one minute, and then using snippets of PS material here and there to sell their new products the next minute. They're contradicting themselves and thinking we don't notice.
I'm not even saying that they are purposely lacing new material with Planescape stuff in order to get PS fans to buy it. I'm just saying that if it won't sell as a PS product, why include it in something new at all? Something doesn't compute....

Let me clear up your confusion then: The basic elements of the planes are interesting; and well-loved. Most of them were there before Planescape.
Much of what was introduced in Planescape was good: Sigil, the factions, etc.

What was bad was the Planescape atmosphere, the punk attitude, the cant, the bad drawings, the modrons, the effort to make the planes into just another mundane adventuring zone, or just a silly place in general. Bad art, bad fiction, bad attitude, clockworks and leather all over the place.
That's the stuff that WoTC has no interest in doing with the planes. All of those themes were bad in the nineties; now they're bad AND seriously outdated.

And for Planescape fans to feel unsatisfied with the current Planar books and demand the return of Planescape books is essentially for Planescape fanboys to be demanding exclusivity, because there's no way WoTC could have two Planes-based lines running at once.

The current line gives some, probably a lot of material that a Planescape fan can use.. yea, it doesn't give them a fix of angst or words like Derk or Grok or whatever being thrown around every two minutes, or bad in-game literature, but it does give them some useful material, and it allows the rest of us to play in a "derk-free" zone.

Out of everything that Wizards has produced lately, the Planes material is what I'm most satisfied with. They've been doing an excellent job.

Nisarg

 

[Nisarg]

... ....

Judging by you constant attack against 90's and 80's fashion (and "gen-x" in general) I can only suppose that you think that the late seventies/early eighties look that is so popular these days would work better with D&D and the outer planes. Lemures in Lesiure Suits? Babus with butterfly collars? Gods in Golf pants? Rogue Modrons with Nike Zoom waffles? Petitioners in Plaid Shirts? The Emo Energon?

The planes being the crossroads of the multiverse would have some really weird fashions. Gen-x had some really weird fashions. They go hand in hand.

Aaron.

No, I think that the domains of the gods and celestial beings probably shouldn't look like ANY American fashion period. The Planes was ridiculously un-epic for what should be such an epic setting. It was also far too recognizeable, culturally and visually.

Nisarg

 

[Staffan]

Lets take a look at the Campaign II poll again. Planescape is almost tied with FR for 1st. That's a lot right? Well, that's 10% of the votes.

Actually, it's 42%. The 10.8% thing mentioned in the table counts each cross as a vote (so if there was a single respondent who voted for both FR and Planescape, they'd both be listed at 50%). At the bottom of the chart, you can see the actual number of voters (730). Dividing the number of PS votes by this number gives you 42%, which is the percentage of voters who would buy Planescape stuff if it was offered.

 

[fanboy2000]

Actually, it's 42%. The 10.8% thing mentioned in the table counts each cross as a vote (so if there was a single respondent who voted for both FR and Planescape, they'd both be listed at 50%). At the bottom of the chart, you can see the actual number of voters (730). Dividing the number of PS votes by this number gives you 42%, which is the percentage of voters who would buy Planescape stuff if it was offered.

Dagnabit! I knew I should have taken statistics instead of pre-calculus algebra!

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Well, as this is rapidly mutating into a Planescape: Good or Bad discussion...

I loath Planescape. It's easily my least favorite D&D setting.

Partly, that's because I dislike planar adventuring as a whole. Give me Dark Sun or the Iron Kingdoms or Call of Cthulu - the planes are out there, you can't get to them, and their inhabitants *will* kill you if you try. I've never seen the need for Epic-level adventures to take place on the planes, much less low-level ones.

More, because the whole Lady of Pain concept rubs me the wrong way. When those planar entities in DS or IK come to wipe you out for daring to threaten their abode, they'll do it in ways the rules express and both players and DM can understand, even as your PCs die in writhing eldritch agony. Even CoC uses its own ruthless rules to slaughter those who tread the ground of Things Man Was Not Meant To Know. And every once in a while, you might just, by a unique combination of skill, luck and the hard-souled half-mad human will to live, get out alive. The Lady of Pain just feels like the ultimate untouchable DMPC/favorite NPC.

Lastly, because the entire Planescape line seemed pretentious, overly obtuse and pseudo-intellectual. That came out in the art, it came out in the writing, it came out in the rules themselves.

As to the original subject of this thread, I won't get much use out of the Planar Handbook (or the Manual of the Planes) because planar adventuring just isn't my thing. But as a DM, the main thing I get use out of is new spells, monsters, PrCs and especially feats. The main thing I draw inspiration from? Same.

I can and do create my own fluff, or modify what's there. I don't know that I've used the default fluff for a PrC in ages, as a DM or, when allowed, as a player. As a DM, I *love* the nigh-fluffless crunchy options Wizards presents in their generic supplements. Crunch needs, and sometimes even gets, playtesting. Fluff can be whipped up on the fly and woven into a campaign at will.