Planescape, 4e, and the problem of worlds without history

[Mallus]

That is, they no longer form a set of core assumptions that can serve as the basis of conversations and shared adventures.

I think the real core assumptions about D&D are setting-independent (then again, I'm also an inveterate homebrewer who's never used the Great Wheel as a backdrop cosmology).

In its totality, Planescape was beautiful, dangerous and absurd.

These are wonderful qualities in a D&D setting. And Sigil rocked!

Is there really a good reason for all of this amazing material to be either redacted or cut completely?

As others have noted, it's overly complicated (for a baseline), even to people who are genre-conversant. That make it harder for individual groups to mod/customize, and I strongly feel that's the wrong way to go.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I suggest that this is the crux of the disagreement. The mental model being applied is one of implicit zero-sumness. You write that the inner planes took up space that could have been used by something else, something more fun to adventure in. But, as many have been quick to point out, the total amount of content devoted to the inner planes was much smaller than that devoted the outer planes. Further, as I stated, this didn't constitute a net loss in adventures, because the rest of the planes existed.

They took the space of the Elemental Chaos. Not by page count, but merely by existing they made the concept of the Elemental Chaos - and it being an important part of the cosmology and not just a fringe region - difficult or even impossible to exist.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I only use what I like:

-For example, I think the new alignment system really really sucks, they either should have left the nine alignments it since it doesn't affect game mechanics much anymore or completely dropped it.

-I mostly stick with the Great Wheel, except in places where there's something else that's neat that the Great Wheel doesn't cover such as Feywild or Shadowfell, which I simply drop into the Great Wheel. And my explanation for the planes as defined in the Great Wheel is that they were what a bunch of Philosophers used to map a bunch of unknowable planes.

-My vision of Sigil and what's there varies quite a lot from any of the published versions of it. And I have a very good understanding of all of it's source material. This ranges from things such as demographics (I put millions in population) to the existences of Feywild and Shadowfell reflections that exist as part of Sigil.

 

[glass]

You haven't been reading ENWorld regularly for very long, then. Well before 4E was announced, many times someone would write about their campaign that involved the planes, the Planescape militia here would crop up to explain what five PDFs they needed to buy immediately to get it right and how their stated campaign planes did not properly mesh with lore.

I've been on ENWorld for a fair while and I have never encountered the "Planescape militia". And I talked about my homebrew cosmology plenty back in the day.


glass.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I've been on ENWorld for a fair while and I have never encountered the "Planescape militia". And I talked about my homebrew cosmology plenty back in the day.

In fact, I've seen lots of people take Planescape ideas in totally new directions and been praised for it many times!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I've been on ENWorld for a fair while and I have never encountered the "Planescape militia". And I talked about my homebrew cosmology plenty back in the day.

Read some more threads talking about Planescape or core cosmology campaigns. No one throws the wrongbadfun vibe around more strongly than certain members of the First Church of Sigil.

 

[Stogoe]

The mere existence of Shemeska the Marauder gives the lie to your claims, glass and Third Wizard.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

In any case, and in summation, WotC did not change the planes as change for their own sake. Everyone knows their reason -- make the planes more playable at all levels -- even if they don't agree with it.

Some folks feel proprietary about what's come before, as people do about stuff that they care a lot about, but WotC has said at least as early as their preview books that they intend to take a greatest hits approach to D&D lore and incorporate it into 4E (which I guess is the reason for the tacked-on ending to Expedition to Undermountain, come to think of it). They are creating new stuff, even if none of it has particularly set the world on fire yet. (I don't remember anyone being particularly excited about Keep on the Borderlands when it first appeared, either; people mostly loved it in retrospect.)

There are obviously plenty of people who liked the old cosmology and didn't find it problematic at all. There are also plenty of people glad to have something new. Neither group is wrong: These are opinions we're talking about. (And most people on all sides are very nice about it, if passionate.)

Personally, I'm glad this is all happening in the Internet era, rather than before, because that means nothing really dies. If Mystara is going strong, and there are competing Al-Qadim fan hubs and Dark Sun keeps soldiering on, then Planescape is unlikely to vanish either, especially with official PDFs out there.

And, for the record, back in the 2E era, I felt my skin crawl with all the "Return to" modules "ruining" the 1E and BD&D classics. Now it turns out that people adore several of them. It's entirely possible that the same process in 4E will likewise turn up a few new gems. I think planejamming seems like a potential gem, for instance.

 

[Drkfathr1]

I think planejamming seems like a potential gem, for instance.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

 

[Dausuul]

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

I like the idea of ships that ply the Astral Sea and the Elemental Tempest, perhaps even a campaign setting built around that idea.

However, if they actually call it "planejamming," I too will be choking down bile.