Player metagaming

[Saeviomagy]

Personally, if I'm playing an arcane or divine character who intends to do any summoning, they're going to work at getting either a permanent tongues spell, or at learning every planar language. So they can tell their summons what to do rather than having them just run off and kill enemies...

 

[pogre]

I agree a certain amount of metagaming is necessary to make the game run smoothly. My players are fairly self-conscious in terms of avoiding metagaming. However, occasionally, something a bit annoying sneaks out - like guessing what a monster's abilities are that they have never encountered before. Generally, a gentle reminder brings them back on track.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Personally, if I'm playing an arcane or divine character who intends to do any summoning, they're going to work at getting either a permanent tongues spell, or at learning every planar language. So they can tell their summons what to do rather than having them just run off and kill enemies...

It's not too bad if you're summoning Celestial/Fiendish animals. They all understand Common.

-Hyp.

 

[beaver1024]

Players playing wizards metagame the most and I can see why. Without metagaming wizards end up being useless more than half the time. Which is another reason why my players don't play them.

 

[Quasqueton]

I find your first example to be more a case of "bad DM" than "bad player".

Whoa, whoa, whoa. What? First off, I never said anything about "bad player". I said "metagaming". They are not synonomous.

I plan on having a little pirate action for the introductory game session (2 game session), and I'm a bad DM for not changing the adventure to include a talkative water elemental? Huh?

As a matter of fact, in both cases I mentioned above, the other Players questioned the reasoning for the language choices because it seemed metagamey. I never said anything to either Player.

Wow. I think to start a light-hearted discussion of metagaming, and I get called a bad DM?

This sucks.

Quasqueton

 

[Hitokiri]

everyone metagames to some extent, and I don't mind. It shows an interest in the game and their PCs survival. That being said, I do like to try to turn the metagaming against the players every now and again. It can be something as simple as having a party of mid-level PCs run into someone that should be easy but isn't (like a 8th lvl barbarian kobold for example) or something as complex as changing a dungeon design (hey, the big evil demon doesn't have to be at the center of the maze like they thought it was).

 

[Tom Cashel]

Wow. I think to start a light-hearted discussion of metagaming, and I get called a bad DM?

This sucks.

All right, calm down everybody, willya? Nobody's a bad DM.

This thread reminded me of my own worst metagaming moment, back in high school, when I pissed off the DM so bad he stopped the game right then and there. My friend and I were playing our wizard PCs (Karadd-Tak "Oakenstaff" & the Emerald Sage) and the DM (still a dear friend, best man at my wedding, godfather to my firstborn son) was running us through the old Time of Troubles trilogy of Forgotten Realms novels--Shadowdale, Tantras and Waterdeep.

You may remember that those modules were the worst sort of railroadey hooey...we soon found that we were following the real protagonists and basically watching what happened to them. Plus, they were jerks--Midnight, Kelemvor, Cyric and some other schmuck. By the end of the first module, we were disgusted.

The cliffhanger was some -and-bull set-up involving a fight with the avatar of Bane, the seeming death of Elminster, and we were the prime suspects. What a crock--like we could touch El-freaking-minster. Did they not notice that Bane was just here?

So they clapped us in irons, took away all our stuff, and dropped us in prison to await trial. My buddy started to get all pissed and worked up that we were getting rooked like this. That's when I turned to him and mock-whispered, loud enough so I was sure my other friend would overhear: "Don't worry. The module will protect us."

The DM was so cheesed off. We ended up bowing out of the rest of that sorry trilogy, because he was too aggravated to finish running it. We players had no problem with that.

Later on I found out that part of the reason he was so aggravated was because, indeed, the module would have protected us. NPCs were on the way to break us out of prison and give us back all our stuff.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hi Quasqueton,

I can understand the direction where EricNoah was coming from as well but for Planesailing to say "bad DM" because you didn't utilise such an incredibly minor hook seems poor form. A little surprising in fact.

However, perhaps one of the most obvious incidents of metagaming I've seen was a fighter choosing the quickest way out of an acid fog which meant running away from the intended bad guy. Considering he had no spellcraft to work it out nor knowledge of the clouds expanse, it was pretty bad metagaming.

And another: opening an orphanage to gain +1 on a PC's leadership score. That one was so blatant, it made me laugh.

I think I disagree with quite a few people here in terms of metagaming - I don't like it. Metagaming does seem to take away from the games verisimilitude. Actions end up tending towards the mechanical rather than the heroic.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[painandgreed]

I think I disagree with quite a few people here in terms of metagaming - I don't like it. Metagaming does seem to take away from the games verisimilitude. Actions end up tending towards the mechanical rather than the heroic.

Fine. You give me a minute by minute description of everything my character has ever heard in his life, every conversation he's involved in, as well as everything he's read and years to process, think and draw up conclusions based upon it, and I won't metagame. So some character uses some bit of knowledge, most of which such as running away from a fog created by a wizard is common sense, about a monster or spell? Therse things really exist in their world and the stories and news they've heard their entire lives are bound to involve such things. There's a bard in every little thorp and hamlet and they're all constantly acting as the era's version of television. Little bits of esoteric knowledge are going to get told in such songs and tales because that's something that makes them interesting. Every farmer probalby knows various bits about monsters in the area as their fathers told them and they'll tell their sons so that if they ever do run up against one, their odds might be alittle bit less abysmal. Young fighters probably sit up at night telling stories of different types of spells they've heard of and what you can do to counteract them. hell, I'd consider it incompetant training if whoever is teaching fighters their first level doesn't go over some basic descriptions of spells and what they can do about them if they encounter them on the field of battle. Certainly not near enough to be considered spell craft or even reference the books, but are things that are made up for by some metagaming.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Fine. You give me a minute by minute description of everything my character has ever heard in his life, every conversation he's involved in, as well as everything he's read and years to process, think and draw up conclusions based upon it, and I won't metagame. So some character uses some bit of knowledge, most of which such as running away from a fog created by a wizard is common sense, about a monster or spell? Therse things really exist in their world and the stories and news they've heard their entire lives are bound to involve such things. There's a bard in every little thorp and hamlet and they're all constantly acting as the era's version of television. Little bits of esoteric knowledge are going to get told in such songs and tales because that's something that makes them interesting. Every farmer probalby knows various bits about monsters in the area as their fathers told them and they'll tell their sons so that if they ever do run up against one, their odds might be alittle bit less abysmal. Young fighters probably sit up at night telling stories of different types of spells they've heard of and what you can do to counteract them. hell, I'd consider it incompetant training if whoever is teaching fighters their first level doesn't go over some basic descriptions of spells and what they can do about them if they encounter them on the field of battle. Certainly not near enough to be considered spell craft or even reference the books, but are things that are made up for by some metagaming.

I agree with you that characters have enormous amounts of knowledge that cannot be properly represented by the simplified mechanics of ranks in knowledge skills. A lot depends on the campaign setting - Basic fighters learning about 6th level arcane spells just does not happen in this particular campaign where such knowledge is fairly restricted to a small and decadent group. However...

The character had no idea of the boundaries of the Acid Fog and if they continued in the same direction that they had been travelling in, no one would have battered an eye lid. The fact that they moved at a 225 degrees bearing of their original direction seemed so contrived for an optimal outcome that the DM questioned it with the result being that the player ended up retracting it. Our group normally does its best not to metagame.

Maybe this was not the right thing for the DM or player to do though?
Opinions?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise