Player metagaming

[MerakSpielman]

Last bit of metagaming in my game: "The DM wouldn't have NPCs mention the assassination attempt on the Prince if it wasn't going to tie in somehow with the story arc the PCs are following."

Funny thing is it has nothing to do with the storyline the PCs are following. It's just background flavor to make the world seem more real.

 

[Storyteller01]

It may have felt good, but it seems pretty bizarre. Bob the barbarian can't know whether he likes his friend Will the wizard to cast haste to make him faster or fireball to set him up for a great cleave unless he has spellcraft? And he can't know that the fireball stays the same in area but increases in power as Will gains more skill and experience without knowledge: arcana? Bizarre. Next, I suppose you'll tell me that Filbert the fighter who grew up next to the trollfens in the Duchy of Tenh can't know that trolls regenerate unless he has ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill and can also tell the difference between ogres, hill giants, storm giants, and cloud giants on sight. And Cletis the cleric can't recognize his own holy symbol without a knowledge: religion roll--or, just as bad, Farrel the Pholtan half-orc barbarian can't tell the symbol of Pholtus from a symbol of Iuz without ranks of Knowledge: religion and a successful skill check even though he grew up in the Theocracy of the freaking Pale.

Similarly, any PC wizard who has adventured with or fought a barbarian should know the basics about rage: stronger, tougher, easier to hit, and might well be mortally wounded but not notice until he dies when the adrenalin wears off (usually in 30 seconds to a minute). After the beserker comes out of the rage, he is generally winded for a while. Will the wizard would have to be blind not to notice these effects.

And there's not just direct experience to consider. Any PC who's more than first or second level should have a general idea of what spells the cleric might cast on him in combat--if not from direct experience, because when he was sitting around with the other caravan guards in Jaramai Twist's caravan, he heard Patrick the Paladin saying things like "Yeah, he was twelve feet tall and had a club the size of a tree trunk, but I wasn't afraid for Cleo the cleric had blessed my armor and shield that morning with the power of Heironeous making it as hard as enchanted metal and had invoked a miracle that he would bear some of my wounds, and when we saw the great beast, he called upon the Invincible Knight to shield me through his faith. So I strode forward and smote the monster with the power of Heironeous." If Bob the barbarian can talk with Patrick the Paladin about his experiences and never get any idea that clerics like Cleo can cast Magic Vestment, Shield Other, and Shield of Fatih, then either Patrick is keeping his party's winning battle tactics very close to his chest and exaggerating his own role to make himself seem more heroic or Bob is deaf.

Similarly, if Bob the barbarian ever walks into a temple of Heironeous and asks to buy healing potions because he's going to fight the demons in Almor, you can bet that the priest of paladin there is likely to say something like: "Fighting the demons you say? With that sword? I think not. Son, even the weakest of the true demons shrug off normal weapons. To penetrate their resistance, you should bear a weapon forged of cold iron. But I see you are not the type to fight only the weakest of demons. For moderately powerful fiends, you will need a blessed weapon if you wish to injure them. Fortunately, we sell an oil here which will provide just such a blessing. If you see a demon--you know vaguely anthropomorphic thing with bat wings calling down blasphemies--apply it to your weapon that you may strike true."

Since he visited the Temple of Kord before his previous adventure, Bob replies, "But at the temple of Kord they told me that silver was good for devils...now you say cold iron is good for demons, how do I know the difference?"

To that, the wise priest replies, "That is a subject worthy of study by holy champions and men not easily corrupted. Ask Cleo the Cleric who travels with you... or, better yet, buy this oil of bless weapon for it will enable you to smite both demons and devils. At only 100gp, it's a steal."

Bob the barbarian thinks (honest, he really does) back to the last time he asked Will the wizard why his sword wasn't so effective against the disgusting bag of putresence summoned by the priest of Hextor at the siege of Mowbrenn. "But, I think Will said that some creatures need only silver, some cold iron, some holy weapons, and some both. How does this oil solve all my problems again?"

"Ahhh," says the priest. "Do not let the erudition of your friends confuse you. What he said is true, but blessing weapons like this oil enables you to smite both demons and devils of all but the greatest power. If you ordinarily use a cold iron sword, you will still strike true against the most powerful demons, but let's be honest, should you encounter one of those, no sword will help you, nor will it help you against the most powerful of devils. Such fiends are only for the greatest of champions to face. If anything you do can make a difference, this oil will suffice for your needs. And, if you run into such a fiend as this oil does not help against, pray to Heironeous for your life and flee for it is not courage to but foolishness for you to stand against such a foe."

Does listening to the priest's well intentioned sales pitch give him a rank of Knowledge: planes. Heck no. But it does give him all he needs to know to defeat the DR of all but the most powerful demons and devils.

D&D characters inevitably learn a lot about their world that is not represented by knowledge ranks. Insisting that players play their characters like blank slates (or, to tell the truth, even worse, since there's always a chance a character might randomly pick the best option) is not insisting on role-playing. It's just a more self-righteous version of meta-gaming that was previously termed "anti-"metagaming.

But this would very from campaign to campaign. Suppose your churches have, at best, 3rd level clerics running them, with the higher levels running the main citadel hundreds of miles away. Would the cleric know the same knowledge? Suppose said fighter saw his village deal with the trolls by sacrificing virgins every winter...

Purely academic question, I know. But it is still important for determining meta-gaming. The campaign will dictate what skills or feats can be taken, even if the environment classifies as 'no world yet, under construction'. The idea of having ranks in skills just to have knowledge in it can get extreme, even tedious. But what was the environment like when someone took a rank in a skill?

Also a point to concider. WHY IS YOUR PLAYER THERE!? What is their goal? WHy are they playing? What is their style? What do you concider meta-gaming? What do THEY concider meta-gaming? Like it or not (I don't, but anyway...) metagaming is a legit, if annoying, player style. If you don't want it in your game set the ground rules ahead of time, and enforce them.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

But this would very from campaign to campaign. Suppose your churches have, at best, 3rd level clerics running them, with the higher levels running the main citadel hundreds of miles away. Would the cleric know the same knowledge? Suppose said fighter saw his village deal with the trolls by sacrificing virgins every winter...

The cleric probably would--if there are enough demons around that adventurers might run into them at least. After all, if there are three things that are true of nearly every demon and devil in the Monster Manual and expansion books, they are these:
1. They have SR
2. They are resistant to most energy types (lightning works on a more than most and sonic works on nearly all of them though).
3. They have DR and a [good] weapon usually beats it.

So, assuming there are enough demons to be encountered or to generate a market for oil of Align Weapon (no oil of bless weapon without 6th level paladins or glory domain clerics)--something that even the third level cleric could make--that's the kind of knowledge people would have.

Heck, even if the PC had never met an evil outsider in his life and he was going by the bard's tales, he would probably note that, in the tales, the hero who defeated the demon almost always had a holy sword. Why? For several reasons.

First, even assuming a concept of fiction (a concept that allows modern writers to take more self-conscious liberties with their texts than ancient writers) most stories need to be kept within the realms of remote believability. Beowulf may swim across the sea wearing his armor and carrying a sword, but he's still a man, he doesn't walk on water. (And, you'll note that he needs a special sword to kill Grendel's mother too). The exploits of Grettir the Strong may have considerable legendary elements, but he's still just very strong and skilled; he doesn't shoot lightning bolts from his eyes or fireballs from his a$3@. Similarly, the exaggerated camp fire tale of Barin the Boastful is likely to be something more like "so, I held off fifty werewolves with a silver dagger" than "I held off fifty werewolves with my bare hands."

Second, the kind of things that reporters and other storytellers are most likely to get wrong are the details that vary from story to story. Patrick the Paladin used a holy cold iron sword to slay the marilith. Boris the Bard slew the Nalfshanee with arrows from his holy bow. Filbert the Fighter brought the devil low with a blow of his holysilver sword. Robert the Ranger killed the Daemon with the blows of his holy handaxes. If you're ignorant of D&D planar mechanics, the first thing you're likely to do is contract demons and devils. Demon, daemon, devil, what's the difference. They sound similar. They're all spiritual beings from the lower planes who are bad. Some of the stories say cold iron, some say silver, but all of them say holy. Holy is the most consistent and special item on the list. So, it's likely to be the one remembered, even when it's not strictly accurate. Furthermore, it's similar to holy water which also works on demons. So, if anything at all is known about demons, it's probably going to be that you want a holy weapon when you fight one.

Unless the world is set up deliberately to say "there is no knowledge of demons" that's what one would expect to be known.

As to the fighter's village dealing with trolls by sacrificing virgins to them, it's possible then that he wouldn't know that fire and acid hurt them but that is hardly a common means for dealing with trolls in D&Dland. Rather, it seems more like an excuse to say "your character don't know nothin."

 

[Storyteller01]

The cleric probably would--if there are enough demons around that adventurers might run into them at least. After all, if there are three things that are true of nearly every demon and devil in the Monster Manual and expansion books, they are these:
1. They have SR
2. They are resistant to most energy types (lightning works on a more than most and sonic works on nearly all of them though).
3. They have DR and a [good] weapon usually beats it.

So, assuming there are enough demons to be encountered or to generate a market for oil of Align Weapon (no oil of bless weapon without 6th level paladins or glory domain clerics)--something that even the third level cleric could make--that's the kind of knowledge people would have.

Heck, even if the PC had never met an evil outsider in his life and he was going by the bard's tales, he would probably note that, in the tales, the hero who defeated the demon almost always had a holy sword. Why? For several reasons.

First, even assuming a concept of fiction (a concept that allows modern writers to take more self-conscious liberties with their texts than ancient writers) most stories need to be kept within the realms of remote believability. Beowulf may swim across the sea wearing his armor and carrying a sword, but he's still a man, he doesn't walk on water. (And, you'll note that he needs a special sword to kill Grendel's mother too). The exploits of Grettir the Strong may have considerable legendary elements, but he's still just very strong and skilled; he doesn't shoot lightning bolts from his eyes or fireballs from his a$3@. Similarly, the exaggerated camp fire tale of Barin the Boastful is likely to be something more like "so, I held off fifty werewolves with a silver dagger" than "I held off fifty werewolves with my bare hands."

Second, the kind of things that reporters and other storytellers are most likely to get wrong are the details that vary from story to story. Patrick the Paladin used a holy cold iron sword to slay the marilith. Boris the Bard slew the Nalfshanee with arrows from his holy bow. Filbert the Fighter brought the devil low with a blow of his holysilver sword. Robert the Ranger killed the Daemon with the blows of his holy handaxes. If you're ignorant of D&D planar mechanics, the first thing you're likely to do is contract demons and devils. Demon, daemon, devil, what's the difference. They sound similar. They're all spiritual beings from the lower planes who are bad. Some of the stories say cold iron, some say silver, but all of them say holy. Holy is the most consistent and special item on the list. So, it's likely to be the one remembered, even when it's not strictly accurate. Furthermore, it's similar to holy water which also works on demons. So, if anything at all is known about demons, it's probably going to be that you want a holy weapon when you fight one.

Unless the world is set up deliberately to say "there is no knowledge of demons" that's what one would expect to be known.

As to the fighter's village dealing with trolls by sacrificing virgins to them, it's possible then that he wouldn't know that fire and acid hurt them but that is hardly a common means for dealing with trolls in D&Dland. Rather, it seems more like an excuse to say "your character don't know nothin."

Exactly my point. If the campaign is set so that demons can only be summoned every thousand years in a great ritual (kind of reduces the effectiveness of the various summoning spells, but hey, its a world...), how much would really be known. Can a player take Knowledge: planes if only one in a million people have the ability to contact them?

As for the trolls, isn't that what is usually written in most fiction? "There's a BBEG, save us!". Can you honestly expect a first level player to know everything in the MM books?

Knid of takes the romance out of the game if you only focus on the numbers, or assume that everything that is written in the books is an everyday occurance in the world involved...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I don't know about trolls and most fiction. Trolls (variously interpreted) share a fair number of defined characteristics in the norse tales and those don't include abject surrender but rather generally waiting for a hero. On the other hand, D&D trolls are a good deal more common than mythology trolls. A lot of legendary trolls get the role of the mythical Other and aren't required to have an ecology. D&D trolls, on the other hand, may live in a swamp and raid periodically like a neighboring tribe of orcs would.

I'm not assuming that everything written in the books is an everyday occurence in the world, but I am trying to get into the workings of the assumed world of the D&D core rules--a world where there are typically X encounters a month in the wilderness and a hamlet typically has y people with a gp limit of z and NPCs of levels xy-az in classes Bard-Wizard. If you alter that assumed world dramatically--like saying that demons are only summonable once every thousand years on the night of the stellar conjunction, that departs a long way from the core rules where (evil) clerics can summon them with the planar ally spells, wizards with Planar binding spells, and both (for very limited purposes) with Summon Monster spells. I can definitely agree that, in that situation, PCs, shouldn't have the normal knowledge of such things (which is why, if you look closely, my original examples were mostly from Greyhawk which is more or less a core D&D world). In fact, Knowledge: Planes might not even exist (depending upon what planes are known and what creatures--if any--can be summoned). On the other hand, if demons are really so rare, PCs probably shouldn't be encountering them to begin with.

In any event, I'm not proposing that, even in a normal D&D world, PCs know "everything in the monster manual from first level" or that players should "only focus on the numbers." (Heck, I've got a pretty good memory, but I don't know everything in the monster manual and I use it to write mods on a regular basis. What I am suggesting is that players have a lot of background knowledge and "common" sense that need not be reflected in knowledge ranks. For instance, it shouldn't take a knowledge rank to know that evil outsiders (things that look like demons--you know, horns and bat wings) are vulnerable to holy water and holy weapons. That's a general principle that will sometimes lead a character wrong but will usually lead them rightly. And that's the kind of thing PCs should know whether or not they have knowledge ranks.

 

[Hitokiri]

This is why I always try to have PCs write out a background. It lets me know what the players are likely to have heard about and encountered in their world. Note that this knowledge is tempered by what the people around them know, in the circumstance where demons are only very rarely summoned, then mearly having attended church will not give you any useful information about them, I would want the PCs to have spent the time researching the topic (most likely wizards or clerics) and spending the skill points to gain knowledge: planes to know anything about outsiders. On the other hand, someone who grew up in a fishing village would have a good chance to identify a mermaid on sight, since I could assume much of the local lore and legends included aquatic beasts. I would probably give them a straight intelligence check to dredge up the stories they've heard about such creatures. Likewise, someone who grew up in a mining town on the edge of a mountain range will probably be familiar with giants/ogres/orcs/etc. I feel that all the PCs should have the general knowledge from the area they grew up around (right or wrong, and nothing is more fun than occasionally throwing in a bit of "bad" lore "In the story of Galdeth the Brave, he had to purify the troll by immersing it in running water to destroy it.") and not have to have ranks in the knowledge skills, since they have not been living in a vacuum. Kowledge skills are for things outside of their normal experiences (I doubt many land dwellers would know about Malenti, regardless of proximity to water, so identifying one would require a knowledge skill), esoteric bits of trivia one wouldn't likely pick up from campside conversations and childrens tales.

 

[Orius]

Metagaming, to some extent, isn't necessarily bad. My shifter ranger, in my Eberron game, for instance, wasn't really living up to his character concept very well thanks to a really low hit point roll (the wizard has more hit points! ) I decided that a few levels of barbarian would help him out. The bigger hit die, the ability to rage and shift (and do both at the same time) were certainly mostly metagame considerations rather than character considerations.

Although both classes fit my character concept quite well; a semi-feral, woodland loving, outdoorsman and guerilla warfare trained specialist who was laid off by the military by the ending of the war just as he was shipping to the front lines. Embittered by missing his shot for glory, he's pursuing other avenues (namely adventuring) to get enough prestige and fame that he can approach his human relations and demand treatment as an equal.

Well, it sounds like he's mad and he's not going to take it anymore. Looks like a barbarian to me.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Curiously, that would actually work. Other than scrags, trolls can't breathe underwater and drown just as easily as humans. Of course, to hold them underwater long enough to drown, one generally has to knock them out first.

(right or wrong, and nothing is more fun than occasionally throwing in a bit of "bad" lore "In the story of Galdeth the Brave, he had to purify the troll by immersing it in running water to destroy it.")