Player so afraid PC will die that she's not having fun

[Stormborn]

How about having a section where the encounters are not combat realted? Where the risk is reputation or rewards. Where PCs are both expected and encouraged to use roleplay or skills to succesfully navigate the encounters. Of course the succes of that will largely depend on the PCs in question. You could spot light the PC of the young lady in question by tying the encouters to her specifically, forcing her to make decisions.

Also, any time PCs are dithering somewhere you can force the issue with time limits and random encoutners. Show them that sometimes its more dangerous to hesitate than to leap.

Plus, realize that "no deaths" does not equal "PCs win" as you try to get them to realize "death" does not equal "you loose." I completly appretiate the "simulationist" style, but the phrase

" Couple this with the fact that one of these newer players has played RPGs other than D&D for 20 years, with a very different playstyle that I can only sum up as "let the players win," and this makes for a situation I have never encountered. "

suggests that there might be some underlying resentment about the play style they are more comfortable with.

Not saying change it, just make consequences, both good and bad, more than just the dice rolls. Mainly to make them more decisive, as they see that even if they "win" every encounter by being careful they can loose the over all objective, or face consequences they didn't consider.

Perhaps if you told us more about the specifics of the PCs and the camapaign we could offer more specific advice on easing them into being more heroic.

 

[Tigerbunny]

There's been some good advice so far in this thread, but I think it's also worth saying that some players are just not going to be happy with a genuine risk of losing their character.

For some players, investing enough in a character to really enjoy playing it means doing things that just don't make sense in a 'let the dice fall as they may' environment. This might be because they don't want to immerse in a character only to have it die, or it might be because they want to play a character with some sort of narrative agenda that only works if they can occasionally do foolhardy and crazy things and have the consequences be less than fatal. These players need to know when and how much their characters are _really_ at risk, and they need to have the freedom to choose how much risk to expose themselves to.

I think you need to have a conversation with your players about your social contract -how much risk is really appropriate, when, and what signals and signs you as game master will give them so that they know whether this particular encounter or decision is potentially lethal.

If you can get a consensus on handling risk, I think you'll find players more willing to take risks.

Best,

Mark

 

[Andre]

We have a player in our group who is much the same - she hates having her characters killed and always feels the GM is "out to get her" when it happens. I plan on using the following idea that Hong posted in another thread:

If I could do it all over again, I might also have a "9 lives" system. Every time you die, you lose a life: this means you wake up at the end of the fight, severely hurt. You start with a set number of lives, and get more when you level up, or when you do something really cool (add other conditions as deemed relevant). This would also let me do away with resurrection as an in-game mechanic, with all the attendant benefits vis-a-vis verism versimil vesirimil believability.

 

[DragonLancer]

It might be worth getting your players to read your post here on ENW. If they can see in text how you feel and what the problem is, it might be easier to get them to understand the issue from their side. Might start a helpful discussion.

 

[AelyaShade]

My current campaign (which started about 6 months ago) mainly consists of new/semi-new D&D players. The campaign started from day 1 with TPK jokes and DM hate conspiracies, even from the youngest player (who is 11 years old). For our group, the joking established a great rapport among the players, but did mark the DM as the rat bastard enemy that we all, as a team, must overcome with every challenge thrown our way.

As far as the lack of leadership, we encountered that, mainly due to the fact that the younger players didn't feel that their input wasn't taken seriously before each encounter. To fix this, we took the dealer button out of our poker set and each PC had his/her say, with majority ruling for the final decision. We've tweaked this a bit and now designate a pseudo-leader for each session to get rid of the dealer button and enhance the team roleplay aspect of the game.

I would suggest against lowering the challenge rating. As a player, I want each encounter to be challenging enough to ensure I think through the next one that comes around. Furthermore, every challenge develops each PC's role in the group. (Besides, even the clumsiest kobold can get that one crit hit, when the dice rules the game.) Instead, I would suggest a means of resurrection nearby (either a rare resurrection scroll or temple nearby, for example).

 

[Doug McCrae]

I agree with berdoingg. The problem is you're not killing the PCs enough. You should be out to get them. 4 or 5 deaths per session is a bit unreasonable but you might aim for at least one. The players will soon become desensitised to the deaths and give up caring about their characters altogether. They may even not bother thinking up names for them. Once this happens you know you're on the right track. The players will now be more likely to take bold decisive action just to make the brief lives of their PCs more interesting. They know they've got nothing to lose cause they're gonna die no matter what they do.

 

[Hjorimir]

Words of Wisdom: Know your audience.

ForceUser, let me start that there is no wrong or right way to play D&D (or any role-playing game for that matter); just as members of this community will argue crunch vs. fluff (or context), people can argue the various nuances of any campaign. If you’re having fun, you’re doing it right. That beings said, it is just what it seems to be – a difference in play styles.

No matter how hard you stir, you cannot mix oil and water.

As I have gamed with you for many, many years I will offer in the following candid observation: sometimes you move beyond being a “simulationist” and make things difficult just because you feel they should be difficult from a literary stance.

There is a fine line between players enjoying a challenge and players who are frustrated. Obviously, we (the old-school crew) have some pretty think skin and laugh in the face of danger (‘cus we’re jaded like most veteran players). But the young player still sees D&D as a game you can win, which means it is a game you can lose. Death equates to losing the game. Whereas, if my character dies, I see the opportunity to make a new character (so many I want to play, so little time to play them all).

ForceUser, your strength as a DM has always been your outstanding ability to breathe life into the world and the various NPCs the player interact with. When you find your groove in a campaign, it feels more like I’m a character in a series of books than a D&D game…and that’s how I like it. You focusing on the realism of the game is a disservice to your creativity and to the enjoyment of your players. Yes, I’ve always advocated that a DM needs to have a firm understanding of the rules (and I will stand by that statement). But that is only the beginning to being a great DM, not an end.

Your understanding of the rules has obviously grown over the last year or so to the point that I no longer feel like I need to question the things you’re doing while running a game (I’m sure you recall the times I was a royal pain as I challenged almost everything going on – how you put up with me I will never know). Take that as the compliment I mean it to be. Now that you have that grasp of the mechanics, you would be well served by relaxing a bit and getting back to your love of the role-play. Your monk in my campaign is a perfect example. I love watching you bring that character to life. With him you seem more focused on the background and the environment than you do the numbers. The context is where it’s at!

You and I often reminisce about some of the amazing games we’ve had in the past. But if you look at them with a critical eye, those games have not necessarily been grounded as tough, in-your-face, simulation games. They were fun more due to characterization than anything else.

That’s my 2c.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I'd really bring the hammer down and put them in another TPK situation, then you pile the character sheets before you and wallow in the sound of thier lamentations!!! The real payoff is to slowly tear the character sheet in half in front of the player. Me, I'm looking for a large loud stamper that I can use to stamp "DEAD" on the sheet....Bwhahahahahahaahahahahaha!!!!

Other than that I have no advice.

 

[BSF]

Damn - ForceUser, you are lucky to have a friend like Hjorimir to give you a straight, honest assessment of your gaming style. As a DM I am always trying to get feedback from my players on how I can improve. Right now, I feel like I am floundering and trying to find my track again. It would be great to get some straightforward feedback like this.

[/end hijack]

Death should be a reality for the game world, but not always for the characters. Some players just don't enjoy the threat of death. Myself, I enjoy that threat. Success is a great character builder. Sometimes failure is an even greater character builder. And sometimes PC death can be a moving experience within a campaign. The other PCs can characterize and "grow" from one of their best friends taking the long journey. NPCs can be affected. There is a lot of fallout from PC death that can be worked into a game.

It sounds like you enjoy exploring this possibility. You rely on good luck and bad luck to drive the events and you accomodate those possibilities. But your player is simply seeing the loss of a character she has invested a lot of energy into. You might want to speak with the players a bit to see how they feel about PC death. You want to reach a compromise that everyone is comfortable with. Perhaps that compromise is PC death is only a real possibility when it can be a heroic death.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

I have asked her what I could do to make the game more fun for her, and her response was that I shouldn't change the way I run my game for her. She shows up every game day and plays, but there's this aura of gloom about her at the table that I feel is somehow my fault.

It's not just her, though. The whole group suffers from a decision-making disorder at this point, so paralyzed with indecision because they don't want to make a wrong move and all die, that they took half an hour last session just to decide whether or not to pick a lock on a door. Nobody wants to be the person responsible for a party wipe, so nobody takes charge. Everyone offers an opinion, and the opinions float around like ballons, aimlessly, and they hash and rehash each decision until everyone is frustrated with the group's inability to be decisive. And as a DM, it's painful to watch. And somehow I have led them to this by simply letting the dice fall where they may.

How can I encourage them to act decisively? How can I assure them that their characters aren't going to implode on contact with adventure? How can I challenge them without frightening them? How can I stay true to my DMing style without further alienating my players? Has anyone else had a similar DMing experience?

May I suggest a few things? She doesn't want you to change your game. Perhaps the comments themselves need to change. Instead of remarks about killing, perhaps find a different style of joke? Do you know this player socially outside the game? Is she gloomy in general?

Now, can you explain more about acting decisively? The door example is a good one. Do you have a tendency to spring things when they just move ahead and act? Their fear of it stems from not yet developing the healthy arrogance toward death that most D&D players have. That will come with experience. Now, have you yet demonstrated the ease of raise dead? Or do you make that hard to accomplish? I'd be tempted to give out a couple scrolls of it for easy, in-the-dungeon returns.