Player wants to be with the bad guys

[Quickleaf]

how do you tell someone "STOP BEING EVIL"

We don't (except him) want to humanize these vile villains

Say these magic words -- "Think of this game as Indiana Jones (or Inglorious Bastards, take your pick) - all Nazis are evil, which means offing Nazis is rightgoodfun. The only thing better than creative nazi kills is killing *zombie* nazis. Ask not whose side am I on? instead ask which side am I flanking on? I am the DM, my word in final like fantasy, Mr. emo-angst! Now paladin up, and go save the world!"

 

[renau1g]

hehe...nazi zombies... yeah that's even worse.

 

[lostingeneral]

Ok maybe I am not pointing out how over the top evil these people are... No player wants to deal with the "shades of grey" with them... It is ok to kill them because they are that evil... I even in my cpaign write up list them as always chaotic evil... Like demons


We don't (except him) want to humanize these vile villains

But they are human. Why can't they be humanized just a little?

He wants to play the one good guy in a faction full of terrible, evil characters. By saying "no, they are all completely evil and irredeemable and even after all these years there has never once been one who questioned all the evil juju" you're negating what could be a strong character, when it could have made for some fun situations, neat plot hooks, etc. Not to mention give your player confidence in you as a DM that you're focusing on the players, not your own story, when instead you've probably done the opposite.

Letting him be a good guy from that group doesn't restrict you from saying that the rest of them are totally evil. They can still be objects of total hatred - maybe even more so, since now you have an insider perspective of all the horrible crap that they do.

 

[knightofround]

Clearly this guy gets a kick out of playing anti-heroes. I don't see anything wrong with that. Not everybody wants to play the "gee gosh golly willikers" good guy all the time =)

The only problem with playing an anti hero is that you clearly want this campaign to be morally stark, where everything is black and white. But your player isn't going to be happy unless he's given the chance to play a gray character.

Have you considered setting him up as a redeemed hero? He could head an organization of tasked with eliminating the party, but secretly sympathize with the party. The party might not normally trust a human, but if you introduce the player as a reluctant villain who "turns to the light side" and gets the party out of a big bind, that's a different story.

That way the player can get his kick working out moral issues, and you get to keep your morally stark campaign setting.

 

[Mummolus]

Chances are, the more you demonize the people he wants to play as, the more he wants to play them. It is, in fact, exactly like drow.

I had an issue like this with one of the players in my Dark Sun campaign, who insisted on playing a templar no matter what. I threw some dried-up memory moss in an ancient ruin that gave them flashbacks of the last person it caught, a templar who used slaves to fuel his rituals (via arcane defiling). Suddenly after reading the "flashbacks" I'd written (different ones for each character having them) as they entered each subsequent room before an extended rest and learning where and how those undead they're fighting came from, the player in question wasn't so eager to be an evil templar. It turned from a "screw the party from within" arc for the character to a redemption plot.

In short, find something that bothers the player and drive it home. Something they're not desensitized to, or something they hadn't considered (scents or sounds are good choices for this - people think battles and death are cool because Hollywood shows them as such, but there's less consideration given to the smell of such things since it can't be "experienced on screen"). Ideally something that isn't cliched like "oh dead baby" or even "broken families". Maybe let him play it the way he wants, and then introduce an npc who survived torture, and bears the marks or describes it in some detail. Maybe a magical compulsion that causes blinding pain whenever the npc smiles. Something appropriate for the setting.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

the entire last campaign got derailed by people talking to every monster...

the first thing everyone agreeed was for this game to have some black and white... infact the pc in quastion was very vocal about that...

now I have 3 always chaootic evil threats, some very evil, and some shades of grey...

if he wants to be an anti hero I have given him a dozen ways, including a vampire from book of shadows... but he wants to be these guys, and other players already told him no as well... 6 pcs and me... 6 of the 7 of us said we do not want any of the coalition to be even slightly redeamable...

add to that the fact that he wants to come in knowing there plans (a major arc quest) becuse he is one... he is just causeing trouble.

 

[wayne62682]

I think the key to answering is to answer what the player wants to accomplish? Does he:

A) Want to be a "bad guy" so he can screw over the rest of the PCs on a whim (theoretically, anyway) and sell them out to the bad guys? Or any similar kind of "griefing"

B) Want to be a redeemed (or soon-to-be-redeemed) member of that society who knows how they act and operate and now wants to put an end to them? Even if he starts out being in league (maybe sent to spy on the PCs and win their trust) the key here is that when the time comes he chooses to rebel and stay with the group, rather than sell them out (which would be the other choice here)

If the answer is A, then tell him you won't allow evil PCs because they screw over the rest of the group. If the answer is B I don't know what the issue is as that sounds like an excellent character concept.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I've had experience with players who want to do this and now - I'd just say 'forget it. If you don't like the terms of this campaign, sit it out'

Knowing the terms of the campaign he is selfishly trying to mess things up for you and the others to suit his own personal fantasies. If you let him do it it almost always turns out badly.

If he is still not listening to you and the other players, then I think you need to suggest he drops out of the game. It isn't something I suggest lightly, but he is breaking the Wheaton Rule in the worst possible way IMO.

Just MO though!

Cheers

 

[Ryujin]

Reminds me of drow.

And nobody ever wanted to play those.

Reminds me more of the current Vampire discussion; perceived evil creature wants to be instantly accepted by the party. He needs some non-metagame reason to be accepted, or he has to stay alive long enough to EARN the party's trust.

I say let him do it, but encourage the party to drag him around, bound and gagged, until he has adequately proven to them that he can be trusted. In our group, the new and untrusted guy got to carry the 'refrigerator' around, everywhere we went.

 

[Sorry_Charry]

Just to make sure I'm following: you'll let the guy play a vampire, but not a human.... because they are too evil.



All kidding aside, it sounds like you guys are destined to not have any fun at all. Unless... <rubs chin> wait for it... a compromise is reached.

a) The campaign world has an off-limits PC race, a race so vile that none of the playable races would consort with such a villain (regardless of his claims to be quite the opposite).

b) The player desparately want to play such a character.

Now, if neither side yields...

The player is forced into playing something he is not happy with....

or

The DM is forced to drastically alter how the world will react to the party (for the sake of argument, I'm ignoring that the forbidden race is human.... in my mind I'm thinking aboleth or mindflayer or something)

Now... what you might be able to do, if the player will meet you halfway, of course... is allow a half-breed into play. Surely these evil humans have run amok in the peaceful orc villages and there are scattered half-orc 'war orphans' all over the place?

Let him play a half-'fill in the blank' (elf, orc, whatever). That way, he could have the street cred to walk the walk with the demi-human resistance, but might still have enough human in him that he feels like a villain.