Player wants to be with the bad guys

[Mark CMG]

how do you tell someone "STOP BEING EVIL"

Leaving aside the occasional PCs-as-monsters one-shot game, I tell my players that evil is for monsters and villains and that player characters are neither of those things. I allow them to do whatever they want in game, but if they become evil (and it isn't accidental and/or the party isn't questing to undo the change), they turn their charcter over to me at the end of the session when it becomes and NPC. If a player does this on a regular basis, the other players have the option to not allow the player to game with us in future sessions. I'm not a fan of running evil campaigns and even the PCs-as-monsters games I have run usually have some humorous tone or are more about survival than doing evil deeds. There's enough room for non-good/non-lawful moral ambiguity in the gray areas of chaos/neutrality for players who abhor the sunny side of the street.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Just to make sure I'm following: you'll let the guy play a vampire, but not a human.... because they are too evil. .

he can play a human of one of the 5 kingdoms... heck he can even have been rased by coalituon simpathizers... he just can not be from this small corner of the map in the swamps controled by the CE empire remnent

Let him play a half-'fill in the blank' (elf, orc, whatever). That way, he could have the street cred to walk the walk with the demi-human resistance, but might still have enough human in him that he feels like a villain.

except half breeds are killed at birth in the coaltion, and the elf or orc is only allowed to live as a slave or test subject... they have some work camps with high death tolls... but he doesn't want to be from there

he wants to be one of there chemist/gun smiths he wants to make weapons that other pcs call genacidal... but you know as a good gy

 

[Quickleaf]

he wants to be one of there chemist/gun smiths he wants to make weapons that other pcs call genacidal... but you know as a good gy

There's a little known printing error in the DMG on page 28, it's not supposed to read "Saying Yes"

While many have relegated this to mere urban D&D myth, the *actual* text of "Saying No" was found on the printing proofs. It was lost on the cutting floor, but some intrepid adventurers have recovered the actual text!

[sblock=Saying No] Saying No
A strong foundation to any teambuilding exercise is called "no, and..." It's based on the idea that too many chefs in the kitchen make a muddled soup, and the best soup is made when there is one chef to rule them all.

That's your job as DM. You are the iron chef. Whenever possible, remind the players that they should take what you give them and build on it. If you present some game element that they weren't expecting, and their power fantasies go up in flames, its their job to weave it into their character without disruptin the flow of the game.

Always remember "No and..." No you can't intimidate the dracolich, and it launches a bolt of negative energy which coruscates through your very bones. No you can't begin play with your own spelljamming helm, and giant space hamsters attack you for even asking. No you can't play an evil character, and if you try to sneak that playable into the campaign the other players each gain a level and a magic item for killing your "all but evil in the name" PC.

Faced with these sorts of "DM can I?" situations, many DMs would cave in to their players' incessant demands, hopin to appease the mewling demanding lot of them.

What a loss! The campaign loses its definition, grudges are harbored, and a bad precedent is set for the next time some uppity player questions you. Some might ignore or get pushy around a "no", but it's the "and" which puts the fear of the iron chef DM in them.

When you say "and", you open up greater appreciation for what is already there. You leave the players wide-eyed with fear at the horrifying fate which just befell their pushy party member. And fear is fun! With practice, the simplest raising of your eyebrow after a firm " no" can send shivers down your players' spines. Watch how quiet and attentive they become!

And that means a better soup - er, game - for everyone. [/sblock]

,

 

[Ryujin]

Even if you do let him play a character from the 'evil guys', there are a few facts/assumtions that would eliminate any perceived advantage he would have.

1) Not everyone is a weaponsmith. If the creation of a certain weapon is the key to your power, then it's going to be a jealously guarded secret. He CAN'T make guns.

2) If he is from there, but not evil, then that makes him 'evil' as far as other members of the evil empire are concerned. He's against their goals, a pariah, outcast, criminal. Likely a KNOWN criminal. Think of what that means, in encounters with members of the empire. Might they be carrying wanted posters?

3) At best, within the empire, he was a low-level functionary. He was one step above a minion. As a result, he isn't going to have any information regarding their 'great plan.' You might use what little he knows as a story hook, for the first adventure, but after that his knowledge is exhausted.

In short he'll be chased by his countrymen, and reviled by people who aren't from his country. It's a lose-lose situation. The possibilities for comedy abound

 

[Neonchameleon]

tadd to that the fact that he wants to come in knowing there plans (a major arc quest) becuse he is one...

Now that's a definite no. Possibly the first hint of a clue goes to him, but no more.

he wants to be one of there chemist/gun smiths he wants to make weapons that other pcs call genacidal... but you know as a good gy

And the second he draws his guns, everyone is going to want to lynch him. We're finally finding something that he shouldn't have.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Even if you do let him play a character from the 'evil guys', there are a few facts/assumtions that would eliminate any perceived advantage he would have.

1) Not everyone is a weaponsmith. If the creation of a certain weapon is the key to your power, then it's going to be a jealously guarded secret. He CAN'T make guns.

2) If he is from there, but not evil, then that makes him 'evil' as far as other members of the evil empire are concerned. He's against their goals, a pariah, outcast, criminal. Likely a KNOWN criminal. Think of what that means, in encounters with members of the empire. Might they be carrying wanted posters?

3) At best, within the empire, he was a low-level functionary. He was one step above a minion. As a result, he isn't going to have any information regarding their 'great plan.' You might use what little he knows as a story hook, for the first adventure, but after that his knowledge is exhausted.

In short he'll be chased by his countrymen, and reviled by people who aren't from his country. It's a lose-lose situation. The possibilities for comedy abound

1) He wont go for that... he wants to be the weapon smith... just like in starwars when he wanted to be a designer of the deathstar, worked on the super stars, and personaly designed the tie defender. His concept is to be one of the high ups

2) Again totaly not what he wants... he wants to be in good standing and to someday negatiate between them and the kingdoms...in the game some other players are high ups and nobility in the kingdoms... so he wants that...and being a crimanal was my first thought he shot it down...

3) not his idea eaither

Now that's a definite no. Possibly the first hint of a clue goes to him, but no more.



And the second he draws his guns, everyone is going to want to lynch him. We're finally finding something that he shouldn't have.

yea... he wont exvept eaither of those...

 

[Ryujin]

1) He wont go for that... he wants to be the weapon smith... just like in starwars when he wanted to be a designer of the deathstar, worked on the super stars, and personaly designed the tie defender. His concept is to be one of the high ups

2) Again totaly not what he wants... he wants to be in good standing and to someday negatiate between them and the kingdoms...in the game some other players are high ups and nobility in the kingdoms... so he wants that...and being a crimanal was my first thought he shot it down...

3) not his idea eaither

yea... he wont exvept eaither of those...

1) He can't be a weaponsmith, if he hadn't gotten to the point that he had EARNED that honour.

2) He doesn't get to choose how others feel about him, given the situation that you've outlined for him.

3) He is what he is. In a world where your political and temporal power are based on how 'experienced' you are, he was mucking out the empire's stables.

I just finished watching the 'not an elf' section "The Gamers: Dorkness Rising" again, for about the 50th time. He can be what he wants to be, but only within the scope of your game world Either he accepts that, or I'm with the others who said that you should lose him, as a player, and move on.

 

[twilsemail]

It sounds very much like his character concept doesn't fit your campaign concept. Either ask him to change his character concept or to take a break. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

Alternately, let him think he's gotten what he wants.

He wants guns outside the swamp? Give him enough powder for 6 shots. They don't have the materials or facilities outside of the swamp to make more.

He wants to know the evil plan? The Evilly evil bad guys lied to him as they knew he was going to turn coat and run.

The first time they stay in an inn, he's told he's staying in the stables with the rest of the manure.

It shouldn't be appealing to play a bad guy in a non-evil campaign.

It sounds a lot like he wants to walk around Israel with the SS symbol branded on his forehead. All he has to do is say, "No, it's OK. I'm a good guy." and the Israelis will like him, right?

Edit: It sounds like what this player really needs is a significant other who is also a GM.

 

[Sorry_Charry]

he can play a human of one of the 5 kingdoms... heck he can even have been rased by coalituon simpathizers... he just can not be from this small corner of the map in the swamps controled by the CE empire remnent

Thanks for clarifying... I hadn't picked up on that.

Well, it sounds like you guys aren't going to have any fun. On the one hand, there is a tightly woven plot that will alter game balance if the PC is introduced. And on the other hand, you have an imaginative player who absolutely cannot stomach playing something mundane... something straight out of the book.

Maybe, and I'm just spit-balling here... the fix could be to introduce a suitable alternate group to your world? Something that satisfies the players need for coming from a less than savory background... while still maintaining the 'no one shall hail from the kingdom of X' rule.

These guys, the small nation of swamp dwelling genocidal maniacs, maybe they learned some of their foul tactics from a lost tribe of tieflings in the shadowfell. Now, sure, thousands of years later, they have perfected it to an art form, eradicating peoples and cultures wherever their gaze falls.

But... there is an ancient power who is displeased at all the carnage wothout the proper amount of tribute. Enter the player's character: a tiefling warlock who has heard whispers in the back of his mind that his goal in life is to make this nation kneel before him and acknowledge his master's influence.

That way, the player would get the 'hey, I'm evil but I'm not' feel to his PC while still not hailing from country X.

Now, I also have to add... it doesn't seem that background fluff is all this guy is interested in. He's asking for rare tech and magics that only the enemies have.

Nope. That'd be a deal-breaker... unless you guys house-rule everything under the sun... it sounds like this player wants everyone else to use a core book to create their PC while he has access to a whole other set of rules. Unacceptable.




In my experience, the contrarian player (as a mindset... not this individual guy) can be a pain to deal with. He's imaginative, engaged and brings a lot to the table as long as everything goes his way, right?

But the second he hears the word 'no' he needles and whines and generally grinds everything to a halt until some measure of 'can I have it my way?' is reached, right?

You've met him halfway in other campaigns... (empire when the party is rebels, Jedi when the party is empire, nazi Dr. involved with the french underground, Peter Parker's grandson in a DCU game... the list goes on and on)

The trouble with that is... he sounds used to getting his way.

I'm all out of words on this one... I certainly don't envy your situation, but it sounds like you have run into a implacable force (whining player) / immovable object (campaign setting) scenario. Neither side will be happy with the other having their way, and a compromise seems unlikely...

 

[Ryujin]

Not a bad idea, to tack on some ancillary group to the Big Bad. Perhaps a nation or city-state that's primarily known for hiring out muscle, to whoever has the most coin (in the past that would have been the evil empire)? They would be reviled, but not privy to the inner workings of the empire.

*EDIT* It would also create a situation in which the party might actually work with him, expecting that he's just in it for the money, but wouldn't necessarily trust him.