Player who can't get the numbers right

[hong]

Maybe if you phrased it along the lines of "I love gaming with you, but I know that you struggle with the rules and I struggle with you struggling - so do you want to spend half an hour going through your character sheet to make it as clear as possible for you? Anything that's preventing you from enjoying the game is obviously bad, so let's see if we can make it better."

Smooth, mang.

 

[roguerouge]

Maybe if you phrased it along the lines of "I love gaming with you, but I know that you struggle with the rules and I struggle with you struggling - so do you want to spend half an hour going through your character sheet to make it as clear as possible for you? Anything that's preventing you from enjoying the game is obviously bad, so let's see if we can make it better."

That's really good.

I'd start it off with saying, "I apologize. I know that I've been a bit cranky at the table and I'm sorry if it's been affecting you."

Then shut up. Let her say whatever it is she wants to say to that. She'll likely say it's not a big deal and express surprise or apologize herself and express her frustration.

Let that run its course.

If the conversation continues, put everything in "I feel _____" terms. For example, "I feel anxious for my character when the combats are close. I feel like we need every advantage to survive. And that's why I do ______."

Under NO circumstances should you say it's about her. Always put it in terms of THE SITUATION, which is not blaming but rather problem solving.

THEN say, exactly "I love gaming with you, but I know that you struggle with the rules and I struggle with you struggling." And if you mess it up DO NOT mess up the "I love gaming with you" part.

And then, and only then, do you ASK HER how she can help you with this issue. Have some options and let her choose what would help most.

Remember: you are not going to fix her problem. You're helping to manage your own anxiety with this issue. Your anxiety is not going to go away because your solutions will only make the problem less frequent, not go away.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

Maybe if you phrased it along the lines of "I love gaming with you, but I know that you struggle with the rules and I struggle with you struggling - so do you want to spend half an hour going through your character sheet to make it as clear as possible for you? Anything that's preventing you from enjoying the game is obviously bad, so let's see if we can make it better."

That's a great way of broaching the subject.

And similarly to what DrunkOnDuty said, I would suggest working with her to list every attack option, I would list attack options when they're modified by often used abilities. So instead of having only a melee stat block for her greataxe, fill in a melee stat block for her greataxe while Raging or greataxe with magic belt. It may make for a longer character sheet but if her typical scenarios are already calculated for her, she won't have to do any brain calculations to switch from her normal attack and damage with a greataxe to her raging attack and damage with a greataxe.

 

[Mark]

Repeat after me: the point of the game is for everybody to have fun.

Yes, everyone.

Today she asks (in all seriousness), "Doesn't raging give me a bonus to my dexterity?" No, no it doesn't.

Does this player not own the Player's Handbook?


It is unfair that a player seemingly refuses to get acquainted with the most basic of rules they need to know to play their particular character or, at the least, cannot look those particular rules up for themselves when unsure. That seems more like the mark of someone who acts helpless because they crave attention or just doesn't care about the fun of the other people at the table. It certainly hinders the fun of everyone else at the game table and that's not fair to the rest of the group.

In a similar situation, I had a player in a game who did virtually the same thing. When it became obvious they were going to continually ask about rules they either should know from the character class section or off of their character sheet, I would simply refer them to either the book or sheet. After three game sessions of doing this, I took them aside and asked them why I needed to keep doing this. I told them it was making the game a lot less fun for me and grinding the game to a halt for the other players, making it less fun for them, too. The player told me they just couldn't be bothered to learn the rules, that it simply wasn't a high enough priority for them in thier life. I told the player that they probably just were not a very good fit for this particular group but they could rejoin someday if things changed. I'm sure that player would be find in another group and everyone can now have fun again.

 

[Papa-DRB]

I teach English and coach rowing. Mike has a PhD in Physics; he's a scientist; he works with rockets; the boom-your-city's-rubble kind; he's a rocket scientist.

We have been gaming for 7 years now and I know his attack bonuses, situational modifiers, feats, weapons, and damage dice better than he does. God help the party when he plays an archer: "Let's see, that's an 11, plus 5, plus 1, minus 3, mumblemumble, 28! Do I hit? Great, I roll damage! 3d8... no sorry, 2d8, each one +3, add that, that also-* no, too far away ... carry the 1 ... 57! Can I cleave?"

Somehow D&D math just doesn't stick to his brain. He doesn't know which dice to roll, which modifiers to use... he's a mess.

And an awesome guy to have at the table.

But for some reason, the math doesn't stick. I'd say your lady has the same issue. Hey man, not everyone gets it. Ask her what she wants to do about it; Mike is happy being made fun of and occasionally corrected, but I suspect she could have some input on how you act towards her.

My guys name is Bob. MS in Computer Science, very high IQ, and he has been playing for almost 30 years, but he does the same thing every time. At one point, when my son (32) was playing with us, he would look at Bob's dice as they hit the table and just tell me (the DM) what AC he hit, and if it was enough, how much damage. Bob did not mind when he did this. Now that my son is taking a break, Pete is doing it for Bob...

 

[krissbeth]

"Let's see, that's an 11, plus 5, plus 1, minus 3, mumblemumble, 28! Do I hit? Great, I roll damage! 3d8... no sorry, 2d8, each one +3, add that, that also-* no, too far away ... carry the 1 ... 57! Can I cleave?"

That sounds like me.

The math doesn't stick mostly because my brain has trouble reading numbers (like dyslexia but with numbers), particularly if 6s and 7s are involved. Pipped dice help but I'm still way slowed down and try to pipe up as soon as I realize I've botched something.

One of my DMs has started making reminder cards for me so I remember which bonuses to add/deduct. That sort of thing's helped a lot for remembering "Oh, yes, +2 to damage this time." It helps me not get so lost in the numbers.

 

[Ourph]

"The most difficult thing in the world is to know how to do a thing and to watch someone else do it wrong without comment."

Theodore H. White

My recommendation is to play your own character and ignore the other player's gameplay as much as possible. At the very least, this is something for the DM to handle, not a fellow player.

 

[Wolfwood2]

It is unfair that a player seemingly refuses to get acquainted with the most basic of rules they need to know to play their particular character or, at the least, cannot look those particular rules up for themselves when unsure. That seems more like the mark of someone who acts helpless because they crave attention or just doesn't care about the fun of the other people at the table. It certainly hinders the fun of everyone else at the game table and that's not fair to the rest of the group.

In a similar situation, I had a player in a game who did virtually the same thing. When it became obvious they were going to continually ask about rules they either should know from the character class section or off of their character sheet, I would simply refer them to either the book or sheet. After three game sessions of doing this, I took them aside and asked them why I needed to keep doing this. I told them it was making the game a lot less fun for me and grinding the game to a halt for the other players, making it less fun for them, too. The player told me they just couldn't be bothered to learn the rules, that it simply wasn't a high enough priority for them in thier life. I told the player that they probably just were not a very good fit for this particular group but they could rejoin someday if things changed. I'm sure that player would be find in another group and everyone can now have fun again.

Did you ever wonder if that player told you he couldn't be bothered to learn the rules because that was less humiliating than admitting that he had tried really hard to learn the rules and was incapable of doing so? Actually doing something is generally much more conducive to learning something than merely reading about it. If a player can't recall a rule/class feature after three straight sessions of using that rule/class feature, then it's just not something that's going to stick in his head.

Not true for everybody, but for a lot of people there is nothing more embarassing and mortifying than sitting in a room full of people that have easily acquired a skill that you have failed to acquire after much effort. Someone in that situation might rather be considered "lazy" than "stupid". (Disclaimer: I don't think not caring about a game enough to remember fiddley rules makes you lazy, and I don't think not being able to remember fiddley rules makes you stupid, but that's easy to say if you're not the one feeling bad about yourself.)

That's why I shy away from the idea of treating someone like they're incapable of mastering the rules on their own. It's easy to have a mistake corrected, because anybody can make a mistake. Having to hand over your sheet for review and admitting that you can't do it on your own is humiliating.

The funny thing is, I also play with a guy who really is one of the 'don't have time to figure this stuff out on my own' type. He has a busy schedule and usually asks someone to look over his sheet when leveling up and check his math on bonuses. However, once he actually learns a rule he learns it and it sticks in his head. He doesn't show up at game after game asking the same questions and making the same mistakes over and over.

 

[The Lost Muse]

As a DM, I've used two strategies in the past for situations like this:

1) Audit every sheet, every level. Sometimes it's the only way. If I'm messing stuff up, at least it's all messed up.

2) Use sheets similar to the pregens that come in boxed sets. If you have access to a fancy printer, put it on a big sheet and fold for the booklet effect. On the front, everything you need for combat, and a summary of basic action/action combinations. On the inside, a page for equipment and a page for skills. The back can have key skill definitions and DC's or something else. And if you do hand out a belt of ogre strength, have it grant a +2 bonus to hit and damage, and strength related skills. If the end result is all that you care about, deal with only the numbers that matter: net bonus to hit, net bonus to damage, net bonuses to saving throws, and net bonus to skill checks.

 

[Mark]

Did you ever wonder if that player told you he couldn't be bothered to learn the rules because that was less humiliating than admitting that he had tried really hard to learn the rules and was incapable of doing so?

Naw. We discussed it at greater length than I shared here. We talked about options to bring the player up to speed and they were rejected. At the end of the day, we were either going to play with the constant interruptions to action engendered by a player who didn't want to learn the rules or we were going to move forward without that player and pick up the pace for the rest of the group. The majority ruled on that one.

And don't get the idea I am calous, as I often allow things that don't necessarily suit me personally even if they detract a bit from my fun, once I begin to get player complaints about another player, and those complaints coincide with my own concerns, it becomes an issue that needs to be handled one way or another for the good of the group as a whole. As DM, I feel that becomes a duty I cannot shirk without risking the group dissolving.