Players challenging rulings

[Oni]

I disagree, the magic item in question is quite valueable and useful just about anyone. There is little reason to destroy something that powerful just to spite someone.

You want to spite a PC then go kill their mother. But save the powerful stolen magic items to use against them. It increases the odds you will stay in the live foe category instead of moving to the dead foe category.

The problem with this is that people are not always logical, sometimes people do suboptimal things just to piss others off even if it is not too their benefit (though in this case it was, as the item had been removed from the equation). Being the the sort of evil person bad guys (or gals) usually are it doesn't seem that far of a reach, especially in combat (a situation that is hardly condusive of clear thinking).

Example: I used to play M:TG quite a bit and a friend of mine had an aquired a fairly valuable and desirable card (I cannot recall what it was right now, but it doesn't really matter). Word got around the shop and this guy started coming up and trying to get my friend to trade it, my friend said no. Well the guy goes away for a little while, then comes back about 20 minutes later, repeat, "NO". This happens several more times until finally my friend yanks out the card in question and shreds it right in front of the man. While he could have just told the guy off and kept the card, he got caught up in the heat of the moment and destroyed his own valuable property just to get a reaction. The look of shock was priceless.

 

[drnuncheon]

We don't agree then. Retconning makes the history correct. In your world, if the same action happens twice with all the same variables, different actions can occur (the worst of which will be fixed in future when Karma catches up with it). In our version, we retconn the mistake and thus when the same action occurs twice in our game, the result is always the same. This is why I consider pressing forward hoaky. I prefer that X -> Y is immutable. If by mistake we discover that X -> Z by mistake, retconning puts it back to X -> Y.

If you forgot to apply 1.5 str bonus for the ogre's greatclub, does the fighter suddenly take 20 extra hit points of damage? What if he would have died 3 rounds ago? Do you go back and figure out all the damage he's done in the past three rounds and give it back to the monsters? What if the cleric says 'Hey, I wouldn't have cast that searing light, I'd have gone over and given Joe a cure moderate wounds'?

Do you just 'rewind' the fight to that point? Do you keep round-by-round records of what happened? What do you say to the player who rolled three crits that got erased by your retcon? "Sorry, them's the breaks?" Won't that leave him just as disillusioned as the other guy when he rolls like crud in the 'do-over'?

What if you realize your mistake after the fight is over?

What if you realize it after the session is over? Do you tell your players "Hey, I screwed up, last session is null and void, we have to replay it?"

What if you screwed up back at the beginning of the campaign? "Hey guys, remember back when you were third level and you fought that ogre...?" "But we're fifteenth level now!"

At some point, it's just not worth rewinding. At some point you're going to draw the line - the only difference is where you choose to do it.

Personally, I agree with Psion. Half of my players hate rules arguments, so I'd rather not alienate them by endless rules discussions to "get it right" - it's a game, and the occasional bad call is part of it. You don't get a "retcon" in football or baseball or hockey if the ref makes a bad call, you just keep playing. This works in the PCs favor sometimes and against them at other times - overall it usually evens out.

Generally, I ask my players to take it up with me after the game, or at least when we take 5. Then we check for the "correct" ruling and after that we know for the future. If the ruling was bad, then retribution can be discussed.

J

 

[Tiefling]

What is your point beyond proving that you can type profanity in all caps.

The weapon no matter what it was no longer resided in the hands of the player. It was in the hands of his foes. Being a Rod of Lordly Might makes it a very powerful magic item and if he was dumb enough to switch its form in front of the enemy then they know how powerful it is. A smart foe would have stolen the weapon and handed it to a powerful fighter loyal to him to attack the player with later. Just destroying the weapon is just meta-gaming the fact that the foe and golem are going to die so might as well destroy as many PC weapons as possible.

Now if you cannot bother to reply without profanity or anything else immature then don't bother replying at all.

Dear me. If you were the least bit intelligent, you might have noticed the quotation marks. Note the "quote" in "quotation," which means that I was quoting someone, specifically thundershot. If you want, though, I can start typing profanity in all caps.

Now, if you'd like to be civil, we can get on with this. If the sorceress has reasoned that she will not survive the encounter, why would she try any of what you said? Or if she is seperated from the golem, perhaps she weighed the benefits of getting the rod for her companions against the risk of the PCs destroying the golem and recovering the rod, and decided that said risk was to great. Really, I'm inclined to trust thundershot, seeing as he was there DMing the game, and unless you know all the circumstances involved it is extremely unwise for you to throw around words like "spiteful" and "dumb."

 

[Psion]

I would appreciate it if you did not insult me by saying my gaming experiences are shallower than yours.

What insult? You yourself stated that you are "just five guys"; by your own admission you are in it for something more lighthearted that I am. That's fine, your call.

That said, if that qualifies as an insult, you fired the first shot with "hoaky."

We play out our NPC conversation IC. We only make charisma skill checks when someone is trying to do something that would be easy for the smarmy bard but the player just isn't a good actor.

Uh, that's nice, but again I fail to see what it has to do with this conversation. You seem to think I am talking about some acting or character conversation thing here. Let me reiterate that I am not.

We don't agree then. Retconning makes the history correct.

For me, what the GM says it the "correct" history.

In your world, if the same action happens twice with all the same variables, different actions can occur

Let me ask you something: do DICE bother you? IME, the scope of misinterpereted rules is much less than could be represented by a dice roll.

The only difference between a dice roll and a random misinterperetation is that the dice roll is codified in the rules. By saying "all mistakes are final", I accept other randomness as valid. It's that simple.

I have played your way.* I have played my way. When I did it your way, I had time to play multiple times / week for many hours at a time.

It seems to be that "your way" would be the time consuming one, rewinding whenever someone forgets a bonus, flipping through pages to ensure you got every bonus. I've played "your way*" and I find the time/enjoyment ratio too low.

In any case, I doubt we will agree.

That much appears to be the case.

My life is too short to worry about the occasional OOC comment.

I'm not sure what OOC comments have to do with anything, but my life -- and available play time -- is too short to replay every little combat where someone forgot a +1 bonus.

* - In fact people on many boards see me as a rules stickler. But its not that simple -- I beleive in learning as much as you can so you can run the game as consistently as possible without interruption, but when it comes down to a pristine call by the rules by 5 minutes of digging or making a quick rational call, I'll default to the latter. In fact, the DMG explicitly encourages this mode of play with the "DM's best friend" rule.

 

[Psion]

Do you just 'rewind' the fight to that point? Do you keep round-by-round records of what happened? What do you say to the player who rolled three crits that got erased by your retcon? "Sorry, them's the breaks?" Won't that leave him just as disillusioned as the other guy when he rolls like crud in the 'do-over'?

What if you realize your mistake after the fight is over?

What if you realize it after the session is over? Do you tell your players "Hey, I screwed up, last session is null and void, we have to replay it?"

What if you screwed up back at the beginning of the campaign? "Hey guys, remember back when you were third level and you fought that ogre...?" "But we're fifteenth level now!"

At some point, it's just not worth rewinding.

Precisely.

 

[Tiefling]

I think if it was something like "Oops, I did three more points of damage to the ogre last round," and the three points of damage don't mean that the ogre died, merely that it now has fewer HP, I'd retcon that. On the other hand, if it was something like, "Hey you know how three rounds ago I cast Finger of Death and the enemy just barely made the Save? Well I forgot my Spell Focus, so actually he died," then I'd tell him to just let it go. Way too much of a pain to retrace the steps for the past three rounds.

So basically, I would take it on a case by case basis.

 

[LGodamus]

Note to others: Celebrim is of the opinion that if you haven't memorized, verbatim, every rule, weapon statistic and spell description in the game, you're a worthless DM.

Are you saying he's wrong?......

 

[Tiefling]

Yeah, IMHO. I think memorizing everything is nice, but of secondary importance to telling a story.

 

[LGodamus]

Tief...calm down it was a joke. I guess I should have put a smiley.......if it makes you feel better I will go back and "retcon" it......

 

[Tiefling]

Sorry. That teaches me to get worked up over a silly little thread.