Players challenging rulings

drnuncheon said:
If you forgot to apply 1.5 str bonus for the ogre's greatclub, does the fighter suddenly take 20 extra hit points of damage? etc.
Actually, I only rewind stuff if the players wish to. Remember we're just having fun. If I make a mistake in the player's favor, they don't usually know about it so they don't ask for that to be rewound. I never said the die rolls were paramount. I just said that when mistakes are noticed by the players and their enjoyment will be affected by their faulty memory then I'll retcon.
 

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Psion said:
What insult? You yourself stated that you are "just five guys"; by your own admission you are in it for something more lighthearted that I am. That's fine, your call.

That said, if that qualifies as an insult, you fired the first shot with "hoaky."
Most people don't like to be called shallow. But in any case, fine, we're both louts and be done with it.
Let me ask you something: do DICE bother you? IME, the scope of misinterpereted rules is much less than could be represented by a dice roll.
Absolutely, especially that little 1 on the bottom od the d20. It comes up like 5% of the time too often. :)
The only difference between a dice roll and a random misinterperetation is that the dice roll is codified in the rules. By saying "all mistakes are final", I accept other randomness as valid. It's that simple.
In my example, the fighter's player forgot (or did not know) that the cleric had cast prayer. I'll happily go back and add a couple points of damage to the opponent. At no time did I advocate rewinding 15 levels of play as drnuncheon discussed. That's just absurd.
It seems to be that "your way" would be the time consuming one, rewinding whenever someone forgets a bonus, flipping through pages to ensure you got every bonus. I've played "your way*" and I find the time/enjoyment ratio too low.
The only reason I've kept this up is the concept that my way is time consuming. I only do it when it will improve the enjoyment of the players and I cannot waste time by repeating stuff since I have no deadlines for getting through the adventure. I don't look up every bonus every time, etc. I only rectify events when things go against the players because of a mistake made.
but my life -- and available play time -- is too short to replay every little combat where someone forgot a +1 bonus.
Again, who is replaying the rounds, it's not like someone is going to grapple in this combat in which we find a mistake in last week's combat and we're going to rewind to last week's combat. Afterall, the player's aren't going to feel like that was fun.

I think we are not as far apart as it may have seemed. I just have a less lawful view of has gone before.
 

Wanna know a good example of the type of DM I have to put up with, and why I like being able to argue him into retconning?

We were playing a Mage game last week. Setting was a mid-sized town with a lot of outlying rural area. My character had ***** in resources, and lived in a mansion several miles outside of town. I get a call from one of the other players asking me to meet him in town. I tell the DM:

"Ok, I'll go downtown to meet him."

Gameplay continues for about 20-ish in game minutes, at which point I ask the DM if I have got there yet. His responce?

"Uh, no. You've only gone about a mile... it's gonna take you another 2 hours or so."

Me: Whaaaaat?

"Well, yeah... you're walking after all... you didn't say you were driving..."

Me: Uh... take a loot at that xerox of my character sheet for a second, would you? **** Inteligence. **** wits. Now look down. See the ** Drive? Right. Now look over. Do you notice how Atheletics has NO dots? Uh huh. Now flip to the back. See where it says, under possessions owned, "Dodge Viper, black"? WHERE on EARTH would you get the idea I would WALK many MILES into town?

"You didn't say you were driving..."

Me: Did I say I was breathing either? For that matter, have any of the other players? I guess we all collapse from asphyxiation right about now...

DM eventualy conceeded the point.

So if anyone wonders WHY I support reconning and calling the DM on things, that's an example of what I have to put up with, to know where I'm comming from. That example was hardly unique, I might add.
 

Tsyr said:

Me: Whaaaaat?

"Well, yeah... you're walking after all... you didn't say you were driving..."

D00d, you should have thrown a d4 at him. They make good missiles, in addition to being remarkably efficient caltrops.

Oops, Mage doesn't use d4s. My bad.
 

hong said:


D00d, you should have thrown a d4 at him. They make good missiles, in addition to being remarkably efficient caltrops.

Oops, Mage doesn't use d4s. My bad.

Don't knock the D10... get the right "football-like" spin on it and you have one heck of a projectile.

Not so good a caltrop though, I'll admit.
 

jmucchiello said:
In my example, the fighter's player forgot (or did not know) that the cleric had cast prayer. I'll happily go back and add a couple points of damage to the opponent.

See, I'd do that too... because "hit points" aren't sensible to the players until someone falls down.

Again, who is replaying the rounds,

Then why are you arguing with me? that's the sort of thing I was saying I wouldn't do.


I think we are not as far apart as it may have seemed. I just have a less lawful view of has gone before.

So it would seem.
 

Psion said:
Then why are you arguing with me? that's the sort of thing I was saying I wouldn't do.
Because you hadn't, until this point said the following:
I said
I'll happily go back and add a couple points of damage to the opponent.
See, I'd do that too...
And that how come we weren't as far apart as we seemed.

I have a problem with absolutes. They should never, never, ever exist. :)
 

I find this thread tremendously interesting, and I like hearing what other DMs do when situations like the ones noted in this thread occur. I agree with a lot of the posts, and the others I think are absolutely asinine, and would never go over with my group. :) Here's a few notes as to what we do:

My major "policy" is that no PC can die due to mistake by the DM. I will retcon that immediately upon noticing it. The limit, though, is if the player has already rolled up a new character and has been integrated into the party, I won't bother... it wouldn't be worth it at that point.

I also expect my players to know the PHB. The more they know, the better. In fact, I wouldn't complain if they were all rules-lawyers for the PHB (only. Yeah yeah, be careful what I wish for...). Every other book, however, is DM's domain only. I have no problems with players who speak out against one of my rulings and has a quote from the PHB. (However, if they open their big mouths, I certainly expect them to have that PHB ready.)

Because of my expectations of the players' knowledge of the PHB, any mistake they make in their disfavor, results in a "too bad for you" statement from me. As I mentioned above, I expect them to know the PHB. Depending on the situation, though, the same may or may not occur with the NPCs/monsters. If, for example, a combat is complicated with many monsters needed to be controlled by the (poor, overworked :)) DM, and I forget something that should have happened (usually no more than) a round ago, I'll adjust. (Eg. Oops - the wraith should get 5 hp for draining a level from the PC last round. I'll add it now. Oops, Joe, your PC takes an extra 5 damage - forgot this Strength mod from the last round) My reasons are usually: players only control one PC - if you can't even get that right, you're an idiot. The DM often must control many, many monsters. There's a chance he'll make a small boo-boo every now and then. As long as it doesn't get out-of-hand or slow the game down overly much, then it's fine (but, of course, there's always a limit).

Finally, I consider this a game, first and foremost, so any retconning is done OOC. Joe died by my mistake (monster took a move action and coup de grace in the same round, for example). Well, he's alive now. My mistake - sorry guys. For our group, we consider owning up to a mistake to be better than retconning "in game" (yeah, a wandering cleric just raised you, that's the ticket...).

As to the original message: If you're DMing for friends, I'd tell them to "sit down and shut their pie-holes" when they question obviously non-PHB-related decisions by the DM. Then, I'd ask "why?". Why wouldn't the golem fall down? Why wouldn't the giant sunder the weapon? And listen to what they say. Usually, the player will often find that his/her reasons are completely idiotic, and shut up. Rarely, he/she may actually state a reason that is totally makes sense but nobody even considered. Who knows? This is unusual, though, and the DM normally gets to rolls his/her eyes, and continue on. I, personally, am open to communication with my players - even if it slows down the game a bit. Works for us, but is certainly not for everyone.

If you're not DMing for friends (I feel sorry for you), I'd skip the "pie-hole" part and just jump to asking why...

In the end, it's your players who will ultimately decide whether the rules or flow of the game is more important. As a DM, I defer to them.
 

jmucchiello said:
Actually, I only rewind stuff if the players wish to. Remember we're just having fun. If I make a mistake in the player's favor, they don't usually know about it so they don't ask for that to be rewound. I never said the die rolls were paramount. I just said that when mistakes are noticed by the players and their enjoyment will be affected by their faulty memory then I'll retcon.

That's great if everyone wants to retcon - and if everyone's in agreement, it's obviously the right thing to do.

What do you do if it's just one guy, and the rest of them don't want to bother replaying what they've already done? That's a situation that's more likely to happen, at least in my experience. Especially if that guy screws up a lot.

J
 

Tsyr said:
Wanna know a good example of the type of DM I have to put up with, and why I like being able to argue him into retconning?

<snip hellacious example>

So if anyone wonders WHY I support reconning and calling the DM on things, that's an example of what I have to put up with, to know where I'm comming from. That example was hardly unique, I might add.

That's not an example of you needing to retcon. That's an example of you needing to get a GM whose head isn't shoved so far up his own backside. Any competent GM would have said, "Oh, I misunderstood you, whoops" rather than dragging it out. My God, that ran like a Knights of the Dinner Table strip.

(Although if you leapt into it with the attitude in the post - rather than just starting out by saying, "I think you misunderstood, I am driving downtown to meet him" - then I might have kept it up just to mess with you.)

J
 

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