Players, GMs, and "My character"...

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If you are doing something to someone else's character - you know, not your own - they are fully within their rights to both ask you and expect you to stop. It is no different from when one player suddenly decides to steal from, or attack, or kill another person's character without their permission. Worst, in fact, since in this case they explicitly told you to stop. It's jerk behavior, it's anti-social behavior, and it has no place not just in this game, but in the hobby as a whole.

The idea that roleplaying games should make you feel uncomfortable is utter and complete nonsense. We aren't playing Therapists and Cigars, here.
 

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It's kind of like me trying some "new move" on my wife in bed. She might like it. And unless I ask her, I can't know if she will like it until I try it. But I'd be an utter fool to just go ahead and do it without asking her, because I know it's quite possible she won't like it, and it's a lot smarter for me to get her permission in advance than try to "retcon" the situation afterward.

I could kiss him for the last paragraph. ;)
You're both making me very uncomfortable!
 

And see, the example we're talking about, one character brings in a romance on another character, is closer to removing pit traps from a campaign. It doesn't require a complete rework of a campaign in order to accomodate another player. All it requires is a change to the character - which hopefully has a bit more depth that would make a fairly minor change pretty easy.
In a case where there's only that one character to consider in only that one game, then yes; it's an easy enough change.

But there's also the very real possibility that what is being asked is much more than just a change to a single PC's motivations: that P2 is in fact subtly (or not so subtly, perhaps) asking P1 to change his entire style of play.

The original example I gave never got into whether P1 and P2 had gamed together before, or the ongoing dynamics of the rest of the group, or any of the rest of all that; mostly because I was originally merely trying to dream up a quick-and-easy way to get an otherwise-antisocial character into a party and it was the first idea that leaped to mind. I certainly never thought it'd lead to all this! :)
And I've noticed that no one decided to talk about what happens when Player 1 in the Theif Love example decides to switch targets to other players and everyone at the table refuses to engage. Is the player still within his rights to force what he wants on other people?
This brings up another assumption: that there *are* other targets. If I'm playing a female Elf and P2 is playing a male Elf, in a party otherwise full of Dwarves, my options are somewhat limited.

But if there's lots of other options and everyone else at the table also refuses to engage then I'm probably done with that crew; as if they can't handle IC romance they probably don't like a bunch of other things that I see as integral and fun parts of the game...

And for the original example here's yet another variable to boot around: how much (if any) other romantic activity is or has been already present in the party/campaign? If I'm P1 chasing P2's character and I know P2 has another character currently in a fling with P3's character, P2's OOC "not interested, creeps me out" denial suddenly loses a whole lot of steam.

Lan-"romance is a pit trap?"-efan
 

Change the context for a minute.

The entire argument, AFAICT, is similar to my saying that certain topics on a messageboard make me very uncomfortable....And then asking that no one engage them in a thread I am participating in, at least not to me.

That can be reasonable, but it might not be. It might be easy to grant, but it might not be. It might be possible to compromise, but it might not be. What I definitely cannot say is that I have an absolute right to demand this, and that, if you do not agree, it is your fault.



RC
 

Change the context for a minute.

The entire argument, AFAICT, is similar to my saying that certain topics on a messageboard make me very uncomfortable....And then asking that no one engage them in a thread I am participating in, at least not to me.

I don't believe they're very similar at all. The change in context from a group of players in the same RPG to posting on an open message board changes that dynamic.
 

But there's also the very real possibility that what is being asked is much more than just a change to a single PC's motivations: that P2 is in fact subtly (or not so subtly, perhaps) asking P1 to change his entire style of play.

If your "style of play" requires you to do things to other players that make them uncomfortable, absolutely it should change.

This brings up another assumption: that there *are* other targets. If I'm playing a female Elf and P2 is playing a male Elf, in a party otherwise full of Dwarves, my options are somewhat limited.

It does not matter. If you are doing something to a player and it makes them uncomfortable, you cease doing it. This is the basic rule of social engagement. "Do not be a creep" is not a difficult social rule.

And for the original example here's yet another variable to boot around: how much (if any) other romantic activity is or has been already present in the party/campaign? If I'm P1 chasing P2's character and I know P2 has another character currently in a fling with P3's character, P2's OOC "not interested, creeps me out" denial suddenly loses a whole lot of steam

It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter why Player 2 asks you to stop. It's really none of your business in the slightest. If you are doing something to another player that makes them uncomfortable, you back off. You don't need to know why they're uncomfortable - it has no bearing on the issue at all.

Change the context for a minute.

The entire argument, AFAICT, is similar to my saying that certain topics on a messageboard make me very uncomfortable....And then asking that no one engage them in a thread I am participating in, at least not to me.

That can be reasonable, but it might not be. It might be easy to grant, but it might not be. It might be possible to compromise, but it might not be. What I definitely cannot say is that I have an absolute right to demand this, and that, if you do not agree, it is your fault.

RC

Let's not change the context like that because it is a strawman at best. You are implying that D&D games all have to involve PC romance. They do not.

But let's do change the context, albeit in another way. The entire argument is similar to my saying that my character habitually steals from other PCs. Every night I try to steal their items, their weapons, and their armor.

It is never unreasonable for the other PCs to tell me to cut it out.
 

I don't believe they're very similar at all. The change in context from a group of players in the same RPG to posting on an open message board changes that dynamic.
OK, make it a private or semi-private message board.

Now what?

Lanefan
 

If your "style of play" requires you to do things to other players that make them uncomfortable, absolutely it should change.
Where I, on the other hand, would be disappointed if they (or the game itself) didn't somehow make me uncomfortable now and then; I'd rather push envelopes than live within them. I don't subscribe to this "lowest-common-comfort-denominator" theory.

It does not matter. If you are doing something to a player and it makes them uncomfortable, you cease doing it. This is the basic rule of social engagement. "Do not be a creep" is not a difficult social rule.

It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter why Player 2 asks you to stop. It's really none of your business in the slightest. If you are doing something to another player that makes them uncomfortable, you back off. You don't need to know why they're uncomfortable - it has no bearing on the issue at all.
Yes it does. If they're affording me so little trust to assume I'm a "creep" then why should I afford them enough trust to assume the stated "discomfort" is real and not just an act intended to annoy me?
But let's do change the context, albeit in another way. The entire argument is similar to my saying that my character habitually steals from other PCs. Every night I try to steal their items, their weapons, and their armor.

It is never unreasonable for the other PCs to tell me to cut it out.
Ah, but here you hit on the key. The other PCs can do and say what they bloody want, and if they catch my PC stealing from them it's probably - in fact, quite likely - the end of the line for him. But it's kept in character, exactly where it should be.

But my PC attempting an in-character romance should not so quickly lead to me-as-player being labelled a real-life creep.

Sure, the PC I'm chasing can ask me to stop, or tell me to get lost, whatever; and I'll react in character in one of an infinite possible number of ways depending on the characters and circumstances. That's what roleplaying is.

But the thought of something as banal as this making a *player* uncomfortable enough to stop a session (other than to crack a few jokes) is just beyond my experience. Hey, maybe my crew is just a bit more liberated than some...

Lanefan
 
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OK, make it a private or semi-private message board.

Now what?

Lanefan

I think taking it down to the level of a private conversation between a few people, particularly a face to face one, gets us as close to the gaming context as we're going to get with any of these analogies. The reason I say face to face is because most gaming situations where these lines would come up are going to be face to face as well. Plus, with any sort of electronic communication, chances are that I have some tools to stop interacting with you (ignore list, kill files) while still participating in the general group.

But if we were in a private conversation and, out of the blue, you started talking about your admiration of NAMBLA or how sexy my 72 year old mother is and I was uncomfortable with the conversation, I'd have no trouble asking you to find something else to talk about.
 

Well, that was certainly how it seemed to read. Saying that someone's feeling of discomfort is an illusion, and that being uncomfortable will go away if they endure the experience... that certainly sounded like advocating they suffer through an unpleasant experience one some vague hope that it will improve.

Again, I am advocating against suffering. Going through an unpleasant situation does not necessarily lead to suffering. It can lead to gain, pleasure, or enlightenment. Examples: Rock climbing, falling off a bicycle, asking someone out for a date. I would not suggest anything that simply leads to continued suffering, nor am I likely to advise anyone to hold out any "vague hope" although I cannot decide that for other people. But it would be irresponsible of me to suggest that people purposefully aviod things that are uncomfortable but not harmful; that does tend to lead to suffering.

if Player 1 backs down... he keeps playing the game and has one roleplaying approach changed or removed.

Imagine you ask a kid what they want for their birthday. They say, "A dog." You say, "Anything besides that." The child is saddened. Do we reassure them that numerous other options exist?

I am having a lot of trouble resolving your claims of counseling with the sort of sentiments you are advocating.

Perhaps I am a very bad counselor. Or then again, perhaps you are simply unfamiliar with some ideas with which I am familiar that explain my reasoning.



Telling someone that their feelings don't matter, that they are an illusion, or are unreasonable... that if someone is in a situation that makes them uncomfortable, it is their fault... that logic really, really bothers me.

I said I do not think it is useful to assign blame. If making the situation someone's "fault" unfairly bothers you, I wonder why it doesn't bother you that Player 1 is being blamed for Player 2's emotions.

Again, you can criticize behavior without making it a value judgement on the person responsible. If someone says a remark that I find offensive, I can point that out without claiming that they were intentionally trying to offend me.

If I wanted to be really daring, I could observe that I was offended by their remark.

If someone walks up to me and pushes me, he's the cause. Whether I get upset or not, whether anything else results from this, he is responsible for shoving me.

That's a very different situation. You've already stated that Player 1's "shove" was not problematic. That is, their roleplaying was not inherently out of bounds.

It is different because I do not choose whether I am shoved. Whether I wish to be or not, whether I am aware of it or not, shoving is a physical act imposed on me and I cannot help but respond as any other physical objects met with force.

I do choose whether to be offended. (At some level; I don't necessarily make a conscious choice "I will be offended right now" but whether I am offended or not depends on how I view the situation). There is no statement or action that is inherently offensive. It gains that property only by offending someone. If I offend you, it is because you have chosen to be offended. I am not saying you should not be offended, nor am I saying you should. But the meaning of offense is that you are not happy with my behavior. I could engage in a similar behavior with someone else who may not be offended.

So in other words, whether I have done something wrong or not does not depend on a feeling. Simply because you feel offended does not mean I have wronged you. Simply because I do it knowing you will feel offended, and you do not wish me to do it, does not mean I have wronged you.

In order to determine whether you have been wronged, you and I have to agree on what constitues ethical behavior. "I have the right not to be offended" presumes you have some control over whether I am. In fact, I can be offended even if you try not to offend me, and I could refuse to be offended even if you purposefully try to offend me. The right not to be offended is based on the myth that you have control over my emotions. "I hold you responsible for my feeling offended," is just a nonsense statement.

Imagine a group of five players. Player 2 doesn't like PC-on-PC romance, Player 3 doesn't like same-sex player-on-player romance roleplay which includes the GM in a number of pairings, Player 3 doesn't like remorseless slaughter of creatures for loot, Player 4 doesn't like moral justifications for using force against others, and Player 5 doesn't think violence should be glorified at all. Player 1 wants to play a little romance, a little adventure, a little of this, a little of that; they don't like scheming.

So do the five players figure out some way they can get along? Or do they create a game that has no romance, no violence, no moralizing, no violent heroism, and no elaborate scheming?

So, again, this is not assigning blame. This is about assigning responsibility. Player 2 is responsible for their desire to participate or not, and is responsible for their own fun. Dealing with Player 1 is probably not beyond their capacities. Player 1 is responsible for doing actions they know bother player 2, but they may decide, "Ok, I acknowledge that, but so what? Player 2 is asking for something I don't think is reasonable." Player 2 may be left with a choice: do I remove myself from a game I decide is not right for me, or do I acknowledge I can deal with something?

there is no "universal law" that says Player 2 is allowed to glom onto an existing game and insisting the group change play styles. That's not a real social rule. That's like a football player joining a soccer club and picking up the ball.
 

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