Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

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Vigilance said:
And generally speaking, buying and selling magic items are NOT conventions of the genre.

Let's see... Conan and the Phoenix Sword? found in a tomb

Bilbo and the ring? found in a cave

Aragorn and the sword? forged for him to become king of men by elves for his fight with evil

Frodo and the ring? Inherited to continue the quest

Thoth Amon and the Ring of Set? sold his soul to a demon for it (IIRC)

Not a shop in sight.

On the other hand, Vlad Taltos tends to buy a cheap enchanted dagger every few months, and routinely hires sorceresses from the Left Hand. (in Steven Brust's Dragaera)

The Seanchan treat spellcasters as property, and buy and sell them. (Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time)

Selling off the quasi-magical treasure of a former culture is the basis of the economy of Bingtown. (Robin Hobb's Liveship Traders)

Goblin and One-Eye have no moral qualms with making and selling enchanted amulets -- and some of them even work. (Glen Cook's Black Company)
 

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drothgery said:
On the other hand, Vlad Taltos tends to buy a cheap enchanted dagger every few months, and routinely hires sorceresses from the Left Hand. (in Steven Brust's Dragaera)

The Seanchan treat spellcasters as property, and buy and sell them. (Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time)

Selling off the quasi-magical treasure of a former culture is the basis of the economy of Bingtown. (Robin Hobb's Liveship Traders)

Goblin and One-Eye have no moral qualms with making and selling enchanted amulets -- and some of them even work. (Glen Cook's Black Company)

Ok... point taken.

However, if my campaign is more Tolkien or Conan... my players have no more reason to whine than they do if its drawn from one of those books.

Neither do my players have any reason to whine if I want to run an ice campaign with only humans, neanderthals and cromagnons as the player races instead of elves and dwarves.

I guess Im not as up on current fantasy as I should be.

I picked the icons.

Chuck
 

Quasqueton said:
I'm sorry, but I miss your point. Why would reading the identify spell in the PHB change the fact that classic modules had a lot of magic items, and the fact that most PCs of advanced level had a bunch?

diaglo is probably referring to the fact that pre-3.5 identify when used by the book was not quite as easy or convenient to use as the current version of the spell.

In 2e (I can't coment on any earlier versions of the spell) identify took 8 hours to cast, only lasted for a a number of minutes equal to the wizard's level, and finally inflicted the wizard with a temporary loss of Constitution points. The wizard could only learn one power of the item, and could only use the spell on a maximum of five items. The knowledge gained about the item was rather vague; for example a +1 sword would id as having a bonus to attack and damage rolls, but the exact bonus was not learned. And exact number of charges was likewise not revealed, only an indication of magical strength from the item revealing an approximate percentage of remaining charges. Finally the spell included, as it still does, an expensive material component.

In 3e the spell was changed a little bit. The Con loss was removed, and the wizard learned only the most basic power of the item. The 8 hour casting time and the material component remained the same.

The spell was further revised in 3.5:

SRD said:
Identify
Divination
Level: Brd 1, Magic 2, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Touch
Targets: One touched object
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
The spell determines all magic properties of a single magic item, including how to activate those functions (if appropriate), and how many charges are left (if any).
Identify does not function when used on an artifact.
Arcane Material Component: A pearl of at least 100 gp value, crushed and stirred into wine with an owl feather; the infusion must be drunk prior to spellcasting.

Although easier to use now, the spell does have a casting time of an hour and still has the expensive material component. Identifying magic items by the book has never been an quick process.

In any case, back in the 2e days and probably earlier, there was absolutely no point in memorizing identify or even detect magic if your DM told you exactly what you had found.
 

mmadsen said:
The money supply in a typical D&D setting is not fiat money; it's not legal tender simply because the state says so. And the state can't print it at will.

My argument is not that the state controls money creation. Rather, my argument is that the money supply is in no way pegged to the quantity of goods and services in the economy. As I indicated in my post, the main thing determining the money supply may be adventurers finding coin hordes.

I simply do not buy that the growth rate in the local economy is somehow matching the rate at which the average adventuring party pours money into it.

If the adventurers are plundering existing treasure, they should introduce no inflation; they're simply transferring wealth to themselves.

Yes. But what percentage of the monsters in the Monster Manual are using money as economic actors as compared to the creatures that simply hoard it? Dragons, gelatinous cubes, etc. are not in the economy in any meaningful way.

If they're bringing treasure from outside the economy into the local economy, as the conquistadors brought gold and silver from the New World to the Old, then they likely will introduce inflation.

I don't see how this is even an "if" unless the monsters presented in the campaign are from a very narrow band of creatures.

As far as the CPI goes, first, of course, there is no CPI; no state bureaucrats are tracking prices and devising imperfect statistical measures. Second, even if they were tracking prices, consumer goods aren't improving in a quasi-medieval D&D setting. A wagon's a wagon, a chicken's a chicken, an ale's an ale, etc.

Again, this is my point. My argument was against Storm Raven's assertion that the D&D economy could both obey the laws of supply and demand and experience no inflation. My point was that in economies in which there are no massive coin hoards being unearthed, we are still experiencing endemic inflation. The fact that D&D is premised on the absence of inflation and clearly (based on the title alone) expects people to take treasure from dragons indicates to me that D&D is not modeling a capitalist economy.
 

Dinkeldog said:
My opinion is that the DM is welcome to run any campaign that they desire. However, the DM that does not look to the desires of his players, is a DM that has no players.

Nonsense. You run a game that works for you -- then you find the players who will enjoy it. Two players joined my latest campaign, decided they didn't like aspects of the campaign -- I didn't offer to change a single thing. I just moved to the next two people on my waiting list. How hard can this be? I've only lived in this city for five months.

Whatever style of game you run, if you run it well, there will be players. I find it far easier to find players for my style than I do to change my style to appease players.
 

Numion said:
Bull's Str doesn't stack with the belts, which you'd rather be using (no round spent on boosting), and magic missiles from wands tend to be pretty pitiful compared to a real archer. One caster level of wizard on a multiclass character was at least in our games quite useless.

But at first I was just looking at the fact that he sould've taken only a level of cleric and wizard, and take Magic domain to use wizzie wands.

Of course if you say he's a powerhouse, I'll believe you, but the 1/1/1/X multiclasses I've seen thus far go against that experience, especially with spellcasters as the single level classes. 1st and 2nd level spells from wands don't count for much at higher levels (except for cure of wand ligh.. um wand of cure light wounds).

The cure light wounds one is definitely a biggie. I wasn't aware the magic domain would allow him to use wizard wands (and he probably isn't either, or he wouldn't insist on the travel domain to increase his speed and whatever other domain he always takes for cleric). As for magic missile, he goes for 9th caster level versions, which outclass all but the most dedicated archers.

He's just too versatile. D&D is party-focused and I like the teamwork aspect of it, but he doesn't need a team, which just detracts from the fun. At least by only giving out magic items in random treasure hordes or by DM placement, he can't plan all of his abilities around a charged magic item, and use them to make up for any area he decided to neglect.
 

Nonsense. You run a game that works for you -- then you find the players who will enjoy it.
and

Whatever style of game you run, if you run it well, there will be players. I find it far easier to find players for my style than I do to change my style to appease players.

These are really only true if 1) there is a large pool of players in the area and 2)you don't mind that you may not be gaming with your friends.
 

Vigilance said:
Ok... point taken.

However, if my campaign is more Tolkien or Conan... my players have no more reason to whine than they do if its drawn from one of those books.

Standard D&D has a lot of core assumptions, one of which is a higher commonality of magic items than just about any non-D&D based fantasy I've read short of Brust's Drageara. Reconciling a standard D&D commonality of magic items with a lack of trade in them is very difficult, as is maintaining balance in a D&D game with a low level of magic items. It also assumes much more powerful magic than Third Age Middle Earth; mid-level wizards can accomplish things that Gandalf (a near-deity and one of the most powerful wizards in Middle Earth) wouldn't attempt, and can use their power far more freely. There are a lot of takes on low magic d20 fantasy (or just low magic-item d20 fantasy), which I'd use if I were trying to run a Middle Earth-esque or Conan-esque game, but D&D just isn't built for it.

Vigilance said:
Neither do my players have any reason to whine if I want to run an ice campaign with only humans, neanderthals and cromagnons as the player races instead of elves and dwarves.

If you've got a player who almost always plays elves, loves playing elves, and plays elves that are enjoyable to play with and DM for, then creating a game where he can't play an elf is still your call, but I wouldn't do it.
 

National Acrobat said:
Does anyone else have this problem? I'm old school, been playing DnD since 1979, and I have always been firm that players can't buy magic items. Without getting into the pros and cons of it, I never have and never will.

Luckily, my players pretty much never read the rules, so they haven't developed to the point where they point at the DMG and say "I want to buy a Flail of Defending!"

They're pretty much at my mercy with magic items; i.e., they say "I go to the weaponshop!" and the weaponshop owner says "I've got something very rare and expensive that you might be interested in... ;) "

On the other hand, having players who don't know jack about the rules has its own set of disadvantages. :/ (To take one real example: "What?! The storekeeper said that arrow was magical! Didn't it do more damage than THAT?")

Jason
 

Sammael said:
From 5th to about 9th level, characters have enough wealth that they should be able to purchase, commision, or upgrade their magic items. However, any one of those methods can be an adventure unto itself - looking for a powerful spellcaster, traveling to a major city, doing favors to people, etc.

I often begin campaigns at about 5th level.

From level 10 onward, characters have enough power, influence, and wealth that not letting them just buy magic items completely suspends realism. The party has access to legend lore, teleport, locate person, whatever... clerics are now bishops and can damn well order accolytes to make them magic items; rogues practically run thieves' guilds; bards probably entertain kings and archdukes; wizards are guildmasters and sages; and fighters have probably saved their comrades' buts many, many times, and can expect to rely on their connections.

This is the point at which I begin letting them "quest" for magic items as they begin to know the legends of powerful artifacts and the histories and clues that might lead them to the items.

Clerics in my campaigns don't advance because they are higher in level. I don't feel that makes much sense, as they are always away. I see them more as chaplain crusaders, favored by their chosen deity to perform miracles. In a sense, they are beyond and above the mortal hierarchy of the church, yet still controlled by it to a certain extent. This can vary by church, but this is the most common way I do things. In my Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign that just ended, there are actually a nice set of rules to control advancement through the church seperately from that as a cleric. You can choose to expend XP to gain influence and control in the church, or you can go independent. I had one player who rose moderately within his church and attained several acolytes and an administrator to help him with his duties. I digress, but basically just because a character is high level does not mean he has influence over others. Conversely, a wielder of influence might be a charasmatic Commoner 1 who was in the right place at the right time.

If you allow Clerics to order acolytes to make magic items, then do you ever have the church order the PC to make magic items and give them up? It's the only fair way of going about it.

As for wizards, they tend to create strongholds, but as they are never home, they hold little influence over any single individual. Bards tend to be traveling minstrels, renowned through many regions and invited by kings to perform, but neither is obligated to the other, as the PCs are usually outlaws (in the literal sense). Fighters would only hold influence if they controlled armies, and few of my players have ever been interested in becoming that indirect in playing the campaign (I've had a few players who are interested in that sort of thing, but they do not play fighters, so they use their funds to purchase land and influence to gain title, power, wealth, and armies - nevertheless, their holdings are dwarfed by any real kingdoms).

Basically, in my campaigns, personal power does not equate to political influence except in the most militaristic or violent cultures. To me, it's like saying the United States Army Special Forces or Navy SEALs should have political influence over the President. It doesn't make any kind of sense.

To cover one obvious retort, if the kings and nobles are afraid of what the PCs have the ability to do, then I liken that to a country capitulating to terrorists. Again, this is not something that makes any real sense.

In other words, my campaigns are such that by the time the PCs have enough money, they can pretty much expect to be able to obtain nearly any item they can afford, and I don't waste their time by requiring them to roleplay shopping trips.

I make sure the attainment of a magical item is never so trivial as to be referred to as a shopping trip in the first place.
 

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