Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

[FireLance]

If you have decent players then the typical, expected level of wealth in D&D allows players to take on creatures with CRs well beyond their level.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Certainly, if your players know they are going to fight a white dragon and load up on flaming, dragon bane weapons and potions of cold resistance, the fight with the dragon will be trivial. But it's the preparation, and not just the gear, that makes the difference. Even without appropriate (but still decent) gear, the right tactics and spell selection can make a normally difficult fight into one that is easy.

Anyway, I've read somewhere that CRs are pegged against a party of PCs who have not made optimal choices, so that inexperienced DMs (who may not be able to accurately judge the danger of the creature with respect to the specific mix of PCs he's running the adventure for) are less likely to throw something that will wipe out a party of inexperienced players (who may not make the best decisions for their characters). The philosophy behind this is that it's better to have several easy encounters than a single TPK. So, it's not surprising that the standard rule of thumb of:

CR = party level - standard encounter
CR = PL +2 - difficult encounter
CR = PL +4 - deadly encounter

for sub-optimal characters may become:

CR = PL - easy encounter
CR = PL +2 - standard encounter
CR = PL +4 - difficult encounter
CR = PL +6 - deadly encounter

for experienced players who make good choices for their characters.

 

[reanjr]

If you want to bring economic realities into the picture, which is usually not a good idea in fantasy worlds:

Well, I disagree with you there , but I agree with:

Permanent magic items (and to a lesser extent the charged ones as well) essentially have the same sort of market as art and antiques.

1) Unpredictable Supply and Demand
2) Low real utility
3) High inventory costs
4) High overhead for security, procurement and transportation of goods.

Which is why I think the idea of selling a magic item would be weird. A magic item only has a particular worth to its user (the market price listed in the DMG), but such a market would cause the sale price to be much higher than its worth. To actually sell something, one would have to drop the price to the market value, thus making it an inefficient way to spend one's time. A wizard willing to market out their skills would be much better off casting spells for a living, or becoming a full-time court wizard.

 

[reanjr]

Humans being fundamentally different in their nature than they are in our reality is not a convention of the genre. Humans failing to commodify valuable items (as they have always done with all items of value in history) is just beyond reasonable.

Many primitive cultures never did this. A true communist country would not, either (though there is that whole against-human-nature argument agaist communism).

But it also generally takes time, necessity, and excellent marketing to commoditize a market. Could you just buy a telescope in the 1500s? I do not know the answer to that question, but my gut feeling tells me no. It was a specialty item that only a few understood, had a use for, and could make. So those that were made were made to be used by their makers. Computers in the 50s; same story. No single individual could own a computer. They were owned by organizations, companies and governments.

The commodization of magic items brings you strongly into the realm of Eberron-esque play style. If that's how you want it, that's fine, but that doesn't mean that the rules and common sense dictate such a world. My worlds happen to be set in times before magic was commoditized, because that's the type of world I like to run, and it makes sense. Just as magic shops make logical sense in other campaigns.

 

[reanjr]

And all of these are just quibbling over the mechanic, not the existence of such a market. This is still buying and selling magic items, just with some market complications thrown in.

The original question was whether the PCs could buy magical items, not whether there was a market for them. This is a perfect example of those are mutually exclusive.

But if they offer enough money for it, someone will likely try to bring silk to where they are.

But if they offer enough money for it, someone will likely show up with some.

But if they offer him enough money, he will likely be willing to forego those potential future profits for actual current profits.

I do not allow the buying/selling of magic items in my campaign, true. If a PC offered someone 10,000 gp for potion of cure light wounds, they'd get it. Very true. Enough money will buy almost anything. But I don't think that's what the question was implying. I apologize if I inferred too much.

In which case, the characters will likely try to purchase noble titles. Which was a common enough practice that it would not be surprising. Or they could forge documents showing their pedigree, or pretend to be nobles from another country (both of which were common). Or bribe the guildmasters of the silk merchant's guild to make an exception. Or go to the black market and get what they want there. If they offer enough money around, they can get what they want.

Or, become the tailor who made a pile of money and bought himself another bolt of silk and had enough money left over from the transaction to buy two more.

I still think you are going beyond the scope of the question.

If they offer enough money, they probably can.


And? This makes it different from a market for any other commodity how?

When I see the word commodity in a discussion related to economics, I tend to assume the economic definition (from dictionary.com):

commodity

A generic, largely unprocessed, good that can be processed and resold. Commodities traded in the financial markets for immediate or future delivery are grains, metals, and minerals. They are generally traded in very large quantities

I believe you are naive on this score. Of all the black market items one can get, children are probably one of the easiest to acquire.

I know connected criminals (in D&D terms rogues with high gather information checks) who would have no idea how to go about purchasing a child. I just asked one to make sure. He can get me fully automatic guns, better-than-homemade bombs (these are really expensive), and all the controlled substances one would ever need to be happy for the rest of their life and kill all the elephants in the world for good show, but no children. No tanks, either. Or F-22s. Or MiGs. Damn, he's useless...

You seem to play a campaign-style where the PCs are the most important thing in the world (or region) and enough ranks in gather information will get them what they are looking for, which is fine. But that doesn't mean that's the only way to play.

 

[reanjr]

If it can be acquired, its value can be expressed in gold. This is a basic fact of life. Once you make something an item that can be owned or possessed, it has a value that can be expressed in gold. You may not like to deal with this basic and inalterable fact, but it can't be wished away. Certainly not by the sort of examples you've given here.

How much would it cost me to purchase children of my own blood? How about a loving girlfriend? Happiness? A meaningfull life? World rememberence?

 

[reanjr]

I am sure that the next edition of the game will further isolate the role of the GM until we eventually get replaced in favor of adventure rules and pregen scenarios that run with a rules judge.

Nah. What you are describing already exists in the RPGA. When 3e was being designed, they had in mind electronic tools, so they made the system unified so that programs could be more easily written for it. The next edition of D&D will be a paid subscription (more per month if you want to use supplements) where you play scenarios dreamt up by an AI. They'll just remove that pesky DM problem.

 

[reanjr]

Picasso's are bought and sold. Perhaps you have heard of places like Sotheby's and Christie's? I can find a listing of Van Gogh's up for auction right now. Or works from just about any other notable artist out there. The simple economic truth is that items are more likely to hit the market the more valuable they are, there is just that much more incentive to make a pile of money by selling them.

Who do I talk to to buy Starless Night?

For the same reason that the Catholic Church sold indulgences, pieces of the true cross and other relics and just about anything else they could think of: to finance church operations.

That's because indulgences were ephemeral, pieces of the true cross phonies, and everything else of no worth in some way. You are describing the charlatens many people have pointed out for selling magical items.

 

[reanjr]

Children are probably easier to get as a black market commodity than firearms or automobiles (cheaper in general) and depending on the bulk that you want easier to get than most significant narcotics transactions. I think you are underestimating just how easy trade in children truly is in the world, and how awfully omnipresent it is.

LOL!! And very few posts make me do that. Are drug dealers really that incompetent in Virginia, or the police who are supposed to be looking for missing children? Or both?

 

[reanjr]

Anything that a person wants can be replaced by sufficient qualtities of "mere money".

Bill Gates, that guy from Ikea, and the Wal-Mart familiy combined could not buy the Sistine Chapel. Are you trolling?

 

[reanjr]

You mean humans are radically different from the humans who populate our world? Because "capitalism" isn't an economic model that's new, and supply and demand isn't an assumption. If there is a demand for a good, and a supply for it, a market will ensure. Go back through history and try to find a culture in which this was not true.

Some of the more isolated Native American tribes never came up with a trade system as it wasn't necessary. They were completely communist.

Because as the price of magic items rose with inflation, other suppliers would step in and try to take advantage of the rising price, driving prices back down by increasing the volume of supply available to the market. This is basic economic market analysis.

Are you under the impression that the world is all capitalist? What caused the Cold War in your alternate reality?