Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

[reanjr]

I can agree with that. But in my experience, it is not the norm for a heroically inclined party to have nothing but cash at their disposal. Most earn positive reputations with some of the right kind of people. Consider the classic adventure hooks: bandits/monsters preying on a road, a wizard needs an errand run, a village is attacked by mysterious assailants, etc. Doing a number of these should eventually yield the requisite letters of introduction.

I usually use classic and cliche interchangably and shy from both.

 

[reanjr]

At a guess, this is because most players will expect the DM to screw them if they try to make money by trying to enforce the player gold/level limits. Otherwise a first level wizard can make himself a nice profit of 2500gp on his first orc. But of course the DM is going to say "oh, you can only sell for half price", or "noone wants to buy" etc etc...

This is still a style consideration. My players may feel free to earn as much money as they want. If that is really the number for an orc's value, then that's just absurd. The designers would have to be on crack. (I'm not saying they weren't, just that it is the first reasonable explanation I could think of). Suffice to say that my orcs' large, ugly leather armor doesn't go for much, and neither does his shoddy short/long/great-sword (only 20/x2 and less hardness).

If there is reasonably a buyer for something, then the players can sell it. But sometimes they can not. And if they enter a town with a wagon full of old equipment, the authorities are not likely to believe they are not merchants, and so should be taxed for importation of goods. They better be careful if they try to sell one of those items, cause they very well might get hit for evading taxes.

Well - actually a high level party with any sense has backups. Especially in a world where magic item sales are impossible. And those backups are in a trove somewhere, ready for collection when the high level party cacks it. And then there are all the magic items that are just given away... Especially in a world without a market. Sort of devalues things, huh?

Stockpiles of magic items are exactly what draw other groups of adventurers. And there's no telling what level they are.

Looks like you've got a lot of really awesome plotlines that you've destroyed by making magic totally unsaleable. Shame about that.

I don't see how magic not being saleable removes any more plotlines than making magic buyable.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Hi Reanjr, nice to see someone making good use of the "flurry of posts" class feature

I would like to remind you (and everyone else) that we like to keep personal attacks or snide remarks out of debates though - play nice everyone!

Regards

 

[Belen]

Or the correlary -- why should I want to play with a DM who ignore the basic rules and implied structures of the game?

D&D3x has a set of rules that it lives by -- set amount of magic and treasure that balance encounters out -- DM's who want to ignore this for flavor reasons without being upfront about it should get used to savvy players like me telling them to follow the fricken rules

If you told me up front about these facts thats another matter -- I just will flat out refuse to play your setting with the D&D rules-- yes this includes good low magic like Midnight and will cordially suggest you might prefer a different set of rules that supports what you are doing

D&D is more than a toybox of fun stuff it is also a structure of advancement -- and escaltion in treasure and the like that is meant to provide a certain play experience that a lot of us come to expect from D&D

Deviate from that and a lot of us just won't play and

yes that means I expect my 49,000 (= or - 10%) GP worth of kit at 10th level in a world that makes sense (within itself) --

If you plan to change this and not compasate me with more cool stuff (level based bonus to AC, covennat items whatever) than I will pass on your homebrew thank you very much

The game is more important than "story" or "world building" -- it took me a long timne ot figure that out but I did and my game is better for it (and I have more fun too )

That's fine. You play DnD your way and I will play it in the manner for which I choose. The DMG flat out calls the rules guidelines only. Magic items and wealth by level are NOT in the PHB, so therefore, they are NOT mandated by the RAW. If the PHB said, players need to have such and such wealth by level, then maybe it would be different.

The game is about more than quantitative challenges and the GM should be more than just a referee. Otherwise, we're just playing a computer game or reading a choose your own adventure novel.

Trust me, I would not GM for a player like you, just as you would not play when I GM.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

If you have decent players then the typical, expected level of wealth in D&D allows players to take on creatures with CRs well beyond their level.

Not IME. I find that PCs have lame AC and saving throw values if I skimp on the items, and of course it hurts the fighter, rogue, ranger and barbarian the most, which isn't surprising since characters can't learn to defend themselves, defensive items stack better than offensive items, and some classes are more dependent on these items.

 

[Belen]

Not IME. I find that PCs have lame AC and saving throw values if I skimp on the items, and of course it hurts the fighter, rogue, ranger and barbarian the most, which isn't surprising since characters can't learn to defend themselves, defensive items stack better than offensive items, and some classes are more dependent on these items.

In my last campaign, my five 13th level players defeated a CR 22 blackguard death night with no loss of life. They simplely had good equipment. Then they whined because I do not give them enough xp as if I should have counted them an EL 13 party rather than the EL 17 or 18 they were because of superior equipment.

Heck, I figured they would have RUN away from the death knight as I had been playing up how dangerous they were since they had been 3rd level.

I have found that my players enjoy the game much more when they find random equipment as part of treasure or make it themselves. A character means more when they find creative uses of the equipment they have rather than being optimized for equipment. They seem to have a lot more fun when they are challenged on a deeper level than throw monster x four times a night then rinse and reuse.

 

[jasper]

And generally speaking, buying and selling magic items are NOT conventions of the genre.

Let's see... Conan and the Phoenix Sword? found in a tomb

Bilbo and the ring? found in a cave

....
Not a shop in sight.

Chuck

Harry potter bought his wand off the shelf and had thousands to choose from.
Found is owl in shop
His broom of flying was mail order and delievered by owl

some one mention money from treasure is not fiat money or real money authorized by the realm. That depends on how complex and detailed your world is. With the standard of money changers (if anyone uses them) you would have the case of Jasper the moneychanger in Greyhawk exchanging 140 silver minted from Castle GreySkull to 100 Greyhawk silver. This would include the official exchange rate and his cut. Or just do the 10% cut to keep things interesting.

 

[sword-dancer]

Now, rule 1 is of course, the DM sets the rules..

No

Rule Nr1 Everyone is to`ve fun.

Followed by t
The Fair Judgement of the GM.

I see it as a recognition of the reality that in any environment in which valuable items exist, a market will arise in which people buy and sell such items. History teaches us that valuable items will be bought and sold. No matter how "sacred" or "cool" the thing in question might seem to be, people will sell it if there are people willing to buy it. There is no persuasive reason for magic items to be an exception.

Amen, the silk road had this name fora reason.

If you go to the magic shop with your big bag full of 50,000 gp or so to get a +5 stuff, this isn't magic anymore. This is the fantasy equivalent of a modern technological equipment. As such, IMO it loses all flavor of what magic is supposed to represent.

In D&D Magic is theequivalent of technology.

DM's do have absolute power, it kinda comes with the title.
.

No, only Power GMs have them.
A good GM hold himself bond at the rules of the group.

For example, if you're shooting for Tolkienesque epic fantasy, magic shops (and beholders) are right out....

If i´m shooting for Tolkienlike fantasy I wouldn`t use core D&D, also goes for Conan.

There are plenty of persuasve reasons for why you wouldn't have a magic shop -- and especially why you wouldn't have one conveniently nearby, that you could easily locate, that had what you were looking to buy sitting on a shelf.

Buying a powerful magic item is a bit like buying a man-portable F-22 built by da Vinci. It's a tremendously concentrated store of wealth (i.e., it's easy to steal), it's a potent weapon (i.e., the state expects to control it), very few people can create anything like it (there's no mass production), and very few people can legitimately afford to buy it (and know how to use it).

No, the "state" in standard D&D isn`t a modern state, where your right to own weapons etc is legallyrestricted.
It`s a "feudal" State where every knight owns heavy arms, and every freeman is expected often forced to´ve arms.

Where theprivacy ownership of warships(orat least warworthy) is more common than of the state or better king

I'm guessing that the campaign world is the good old fashioned pseudo-medieval D&D world. If that's the case, the most important thing to realize is that in the pre-modern world, there aren't shops in the modern sense of the idea; anything expensive or worthwhile was commissioned. .

Knightly Plate armour was mass produced in the Rhineland and the Ruhr territorry,
Kings ordered weapnas and armour in the thousands for their troops

Now, I suppose the characters could go to a local temple or mages' guild to commission magic items for a special purpose. The people at that place would not only be selling very expensive materials in exchange for gold; they would also be selling their XP.

For special Items go better to the Alchemists/Thaumaturgists/Magesmith guilds, they are specialoced in making such items.

XP are an outgame Mechanic.

Wieland the smith forged Weaponsand armour(who protected better than rune magic), his own blade Mimung cut Hildegrim, the work of an dwarven Master Smith*, topieces.

*Thesame Smith Alberich forged also Nagelring, for which to harden thesmith seached in a dozen Kingdoms or so, to find the right water.

Heroes and Kings came to Wieland tolet him craft Weapons, Armour and maybe magic jewelry.

 

[Azgulor]

Here's another argument against the olde magic shoppe - the heist. Maybe the players feel cheated, maybe an item costs too much. Whatever the reason, the players get the idea of robbing the shop, obtaining some cool new toys, and selling the items they don't want/need for $$$$.

Now, before everyone goes overboard providing magical defenses equal to Fort Knox for said shop, remember that most of these shops would presumably be in cities or at large towns, the shops are likely to appear as any other building, be built very close to surrounding buildings, etc. so strong external defenses would likely be poorly received by the local authorities. ("I don't care if that fireball is a magical theft-deterrent, you fried 8 citizens walking in the street!") Also, it's a shop, so lethal traps in the showroom might not work very well. Also, the shop keeper is presumably running the place to make a profit - excessive security measures add expenses that may be cost prohibitive. If the shopkeeper is a high level mage, he can probably summon/conjure what he needs, but I have yet to encounter a player who makes a spellcaster and says "Thurfgar's goal is to become powerful enough to open his own magic shop!"

I do, however, believe the purchase and sale of magic items make sense in the following two cases: the "alchemist" who sells easily-produced items such as potions, scrolls, etc. and the "private collector" - the affluent citizen who buys and/or sells items that are of historical interest, add to his/her power, are cultural curiosities, etc. They would be rich enough to own that villa/mansion with the perimeter wall, can make sizeable "contributions" to the government for any curious habits or unfortunate consequences. ("Yes, it's unfortunate the displacer beast escaped, let me pay the funeral expenses and taxes of the slain citizens. Oh, and I heard the council has finally agreed to build a new barracks, here's a donation towards the project...")

By the way, the heist scenario happened in two separate campaigns with different players. Given the habits of adventurers, it's pretty easy for them to conclude, it's a low-med risk for high reward. One group liked the idea so well they began considering traveling to other cities expressly for the purpose of knocking over the magic shops. The olde magic shoppe made no appearances in later campaigns....

Azgulor

 

[Belen]

In D&D Magic is theequivalent of technology.

Bull.

A good GM hold himself bond at the rules of the group.

No one disputes that statement. However, the rules for the game are set when the campaign begins. They do not change due to player whim during a campaign. If a player wants a different set of rules, then they are free to be the GM.

In fact, any of my old group were free to GM. If a player does not like the game, then they should find a new game or agree to GM. I would have been more than happy to play for a change.

In my experience, players who whine that the RAW must be enforced at all costs want to make certain that they control the game and dictate how it is played and do not care in the slightest whether the GM has fun. These players NEVER GM.

Or these types of players want the RAW strictly enforced when they play, but strictly enforce their own set of standards when they GM because it is a control issue.

I have seen both types of player and will not longer game with the type.