Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

[fusangite]

Knightly Plate armour was mass produced in the Rhineland and the Ruhr territorry,
Kings ordered weapnas and armour in the thousands for their troops

A few problems with this statement:
(a) for most of the medieval period, there was not plate armour so your example refers only to the late medieval period
(b) when armour was mass-produced it was produced for military campaigns using state resources at the behest of the state; it was not mass-produced and then kept in inventory on spec in the anticipation that someone might buy it
(c) the situation you are describing here is not maintaining an inventory in anticipation of sale; it is a very large-scale commission

 

[sword-dancer]

A few problems with this statement:
(a) for most of the medieval period, there was not plate armour so your example refers only to the late medieval period

Yes, at thesame or later times as most D&D worlds are.


(

b) when armour was mass-produced it was produced for military campaigns

Or for the knighting, or forming of an "standing" armed force like the ordonnance Companies of the Dauphin or france, or the house troops of kings and Princes.

it was not mass-produced and then kept in inventory on spec in the anticipation that someone might buy it

it was buyerssend or go to the Ruhr/rhineland and searched for fitting pieces of armour.

Bull..
RAW

Meaning?

Here's another argument against the olde magic shoppe - the heist. Maybe the players feel cheated, maybe an item costs too much. Whatever the reason, the players get the idea of robbing the shop, obtaining some cool new toys, and selling the items they don't want/need for $$$$.

If they could get past the defences of said shop, who should be to difficult to make it worth, and if they found the Items still there.

1 I don`t need any excuses to use deadly force at my own territory to fight illegal intruders.
2 I don`t bet, that MI at least the better ones, actually stored in the shop.

Also, it's a shop, so lethal traps in the showroom might not work very well. Also, the shop keeper is presumably running the place to make a profit - excessive security measures add expenses that may be cost prohibitive.

This depends on what the shop normally sells.
Look at a modern Bank, Jewelry and so on.
Also the security is partz of the Price tag.

 

[National Acrobat]

Maybe the word buy should be more clearly defined from the original poster. Usually the word buy (dictionary.com) is used to refer to exchanges made with money, credit, species, etc. Exchange for magical items or services would not be "buy"ing in this sense, and would usually be referred to as bartering. And so there would be no market, even if the goods were able to be acquired.

To clarify, my players (since I am the original poster) may not buy magic items with any meaning of the word buy.

The only exception to the rule is potions and scrolls, which they may buy from their own temple if they are a divine class or from the wizard's guild if they are an arcane caster who is a member.

I give magic items as treasure, loot and rewards, and I choose the items that I place to ensure that the party has a balance of needed items appropriate for the challenges they will face, and to ensure that no one character has more items or more powerful items than any other player.

I think that should clear it up.

They certainly recieve enough gold to where those in the party who could create items would, and to be honest, the other characters (and their players) have offered to pay said players above and beyond the value to create items. They simply won't do it.

 

[Bryan898]

My question to the people who don't allow magical items to be sold (I'm one) is this: Do you allow PCs to commission something to be made? I know that quite a few people said that they stressed item creation feats in the party, but is this person supposed to create everything for the party? For example, if you have a ranger with a favored enemy of undead who wants a disruption weapon, yet the only spellcaster is a wizard (who doesn't have access to the heal spell), can he commission it from the local clergy or druids? What if he had to do a quest for them? On another note, could he quest for such an item as the Paladin would quest for his holy sword?

Personally, I allow rather easy access to items like a suit of +5 Plate Mail, or +5 Longsword if the PC is willing to take the time to get it. When I played if I saw a +5 Longsword as compared to a +1 Longsword I wouldn't get any sense of wonder... If in the same token I found a +1 Flaming Burst Longsword I would think it a lot cooler than the +5 Longsword. I also found that some of the more enjoyable items I've ever had were ones that one of my paladin created. The DM allowed me to spend several days in prayer at the local church to have my weapon better affect evil, the creation cost was given in tithing and the XP cost payed by the character. Occasionally I had to do some minor quest for my deity, but it wasn't anything major. The item had a real feel of being part of the character, and something that he worked hard for as he paid the cost for it. I would much rather my players have weapons they grow with, than new weapons they find or buy.

 

[Staffan]

A quasi-Roman setting might feature fairly sophisticated markets. A quasi-Venetian setting might, too. A Tolkien-esque, Anglo-Saxon setting would not. There's a lot of "friction" in a pre-capitalist economy, just like in a modern black market.

The default "civilization level" of human society in D&D is a lot closer to Galileo than to William the Conqueror.

 

[Staffan]

And what did he spend the money on?

If it is magic items then you are using circular reference. The market for magic items has to be there before the artificer is willing to sell XP for GP. And the people have to be willing to sell XP for GP before there is a market for magic items. Critical Mass much first be reached.

IIRC, he spent most of it on components for more magic items - there aren't many other expensive pieces of equipment a PC would want. He also spent a bunch on getting a nice place to live.

Also, it should be noted that the party is based out of one of the biggest cities in the world, so if there's a market for magic anywhere it's there.

 

[sword-dancer]

The funny thing about this thread is that is further highlights the 3e divide. Even in an area where the GM should have full control, magic item distribution, you get a rules argument that a certain level of items are owed to the players and that it is a rule!.

I considered a guideline/rule of thumb...
If your PCsare sohould be ready for facing Challengerating X they should beLevel Y and `ve the appropiate gear fpr that Level.

But any civil society developed enough to have that kind of market economy is also going to have laws restricting the sale of goods that represent a massive threat to its stability. When you're talking magic the correct analogy is the arms trade. Often in WMD's. ...

Normally foreigners/Non Citicen wouldn`t be allowed to sray overnight in a city, and even Knights or at last lesser nobility wouldn`t be allowed with weapons and armour in a city.

Oh yes....please keep giving examples of organizations that are post printing press.

The Hanse?

I keep seeing this argument.

In effect people are saying that those of us who feel magic items shouldnt be bought/sold are stupid.
k

No, wrong in the standard CS.

Samurai Swords

The makers of these weapons were quickly snatched up the ruling military elite. In many cases individual lords seeking an advantage over their foes. These lords would give these weapons to their followers, in order to gain an edge in the civil wars of the era.

1st the last Sword i want to use on a battlefield is the katana, the steel is of low Qualitie.
This is a Problem of the Japanese Mines not of their Craft.
2 Most Bushi fought with Yari/Spear and Bow
3 No army had the sword as a main weapon.
4 Farmers in Japan were known as on swordsman, they were allowed to own the katana, the wakizashi was priviliged to the nobility and the samurai.
As Hideyoshi disarmed the farmersm hecalled their weapns in to make buddhastatues of them, great benefit tokarma and so on.

Relics in Medieval Europe

These items were quickly snatched up by the ruling religious and cultural elite. In many cases these items were used to consecrate important events and places, but were occasionally given to those undertaking a quest (relics accompanied Crusaders if I am not mistaken).
Sometimes they were sold... but still only to the faithful.

Or stolen.
The bycanteanssold the hedgecrown of Christ to Louis the saint.
The Banner of Outremer or the Patriarch of Outremer marcged to war with a Piece of the true cross.
But relics of saints were sold and given freely through europe.

In both cases... there were numerous conmen

Sometimes the bishops.

Does anyone thing the sale of powerful items would not be regulated? Even +1 swords would be watched by the wise ruler. If someone were to acquire a few hundred of them (over a long period of time) they could mount an effective military force.

Only if you`ve enough Quality Soldiers to use them efficient, and if you´ve the äquivalent of the Knights Templar against you, a few swords+1 1 were the very last of your concerns.

 

[reanjr]

Hi Reanjr, nice to see someone making good use of the "flurry of posts" class feature

Yeah, I usually do most of my posting from work; if I don't respond to comments message by message, I'd quickly lose track of what I was going to say as I was interrupted by responsibility.

 

[Belen]

My question to the people who don't allow magical items to be sold (I'm one) is this: Do you allow PCs to commission something to be made? I know that quite a few people said that they stressed item creation feats in the party, but is this person supposed to create everything for the party? For example, if you have a ranger with a favored enemy of undead who wants a disruption weapon, yet the only spellcaster is a wizard (who doesn't have access to the heal spell), can he commission it from the local clergy or druids? What if he had to do a quest for them? On another note, could he quest for such an item as the Paladin would quest for his holy sword?

Yes, the ranger could commission the item or quest for it. In the case of commissioning, the ranger would need to find the right church. Either the Ranger would need to find a church whose goal was eradicating undead or one that was somehow aligned with the PCs or party. The Ranger would then have to offer something to the church or perform some deed for them.

As for the quest, the Ranger could gather the information needed to find the location of an undead slaying sword.

Heck, I love to see this type of thing because it can really help to flesh out the story, the world, and the character.

 

[Klaus]

National Acrobat -> Take a look at the recent Rules of the Game article series in the WotC site. In part 7, Skip Williams mention a variant guideline that lets other characters constribute with the XP for making Magic Items. If the players who want the items can chalk up the XP and gp, maybe the players-who-won't-make-items will warm up to the idea.

Also, show them a couple of items they *could* make with the resources they have available. If it's something they really want, they might warm up to the idea.

Thirdly, nowhere in the core rules does it say that there are magic shops. The rules state the gold piece limit of communities. By simply saying that no community in your campaign has a gp limit higher than 1800 gp, you rule communities that sell magic arms and armor (since those start at 2000 gp).