Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

[National Acrobat]

Cool

National Acrobat -> Take a look at the recent Rules of the Game article series in the WotC site. In part 7, Skip Williams mention a variant guideline that lets other characters constribute with the XP for making Magic Items. If the players who want the items can chalk up the XP and gp, maybe the players-who-won't-make-items will warm up to the idea.

Also, show them a couple of items they *could* make with the resources they have available. If it's something they really want, they might warm up to the idea.

Thirdly, nowhere in the core rules does it say that there are magic shops. The rules state the gold piece limit of communities. By simply saying that no community in your campaign has a gp limit higher than 1800 gp, you rule communities that sell magic arms and armor (since those start at 2000 gp).

Thanks, this is just what I need. This will make things a lot easier. Cool.

As for the GP Limit for settlements, I use that. The campaign takes place in a very remote, rural part of the world. Everyone likes the wilderness adventures and exploring, but the same pair grumble about the small villages and hamlets.

However, the variant creation rules will be well used. The other players will love them.

 

[sword-dancer]

And sometimes, it is a GM call. Subjective rulings do not automatically equate with unfair. Not everything can be measured and quantified. It is a ROLEplaying game. Everything is not meant to be quantified. If you want number heavy and extreme quantification, then there is always the computer.

In a game designed for the imagination, then you had better expect some degree of subjectivity.

I expect, that everyplayer IMG plays his character as "good" as he can, in the way he envision his PC and how he expect to be the most fun.
With respect to the other players and my approval of fitting the Campaign.

If someone plays "worser" than the other, my first Question would be?
Where had I misunderstood the Character/Players desire

The second what goes wrong, what make I wrong ?

Abd that didn`t take into account that the "worser" player has less routine, is a less gifted actor or had an character who fals outside his normal stuff.

Is these anything deserving less XP?

I don`t believe I´d any right to educate any other player.

 

[Vigilance]

Harry potter bought his wand off the shelf and had thousands to choose from.
Found is owl in shop
His broom of flying was mail order and delievered by owl

some one mention money from treasure is not fiat money or real money authorized by the realm. That depends on how complex and detailed your world is. With the standard of money changers (if anyone uses them) you would have the case of Jasper the moneychanger in Greyhawk exchanging 140 silver minted from Castle GreySkull to 100 Greyhawk silver. This would include the official exchange rate and his cut. Or just do the 10% cut to keep things interesting.

Ok... for the nitpick impaired... when I pointed out Tolkien and Conan... do you think I am not aware there are other subgenre of fantasy out there?

My point was, by pointing out two of the pillars the game of D&D was built on (by Gygax's own admission)... NEITHER of which had handy dandy market economies of magic items, that it is clearly a legitimate choice for how you run your game.

If people want to run a Harry Potter game, more power to them. Sounds fun, I'd play.

If people want to run a Tolkien style game, which includes such irrationalities as Dragons, Elves, Dwarvwes, undead and *gasp* no market economy for magic... that is ALSO a legitimate choice.

As long as the game master is making legitimate choices... players should either stop whining, shut up and play or man up and run their own game.

Chuck

 

[Jack of Shadows]

Does anyone else have this problem? I'm old school, been playing DnD since 1979, and I have always been firm that players can't buy magic items. Without getting into the pros and cons of it, I never have and never will. It's just me and my style, and I am very up front with it when starting a new game or group. However I've noticed that with the advent of 3E, a few of my players are very adamant that the rules indicate that they are allowed to purchase magic items.

Now, rule 1 is of course, the DM sets the rules. I have never allowed this, and am fairly good about providing treasure in the form of items the party will need and will find useful and beneficial, and even after all of this, they are telling me that I am missing the boat on 3E rules.

Am I? I don't think I am, but some opinions and experiences would be helpful.

Well,

In my view, you are. Here's why. 3E assumes a certain amount of equipment is carried by characters at each level. This is an element of how CR's are determined. If a character has a large number of magic items they can't use or aren't motivated to use (A fighter specializing in axes with a pack full of magic longswords) or a trunk full of unspent gold, they aren't going to be comparable to an equal CR creature (assuming a party of 4 etc...).

3E added this wonderful little tool that tells you the most expensive items you can buy within a settlement. Makes it very easy for a DM to determine what the characters CAN get their hands on. In my campaign the characters befriended a local merchant to do their buying for them. He regularly sends orders to the capitol at the players bequest. This of course takes 'time'. It also means that if I want to drag the players off somewhere I can have the merchant caravan raided. Nothing sets a group of players off like having their parcels pillaged (note: don't over use this ploy).

Now, providing you're willing to adapt to the fact that the characters won't be up to the challenges a more "commercial" adventuring group would then by all means go with your own story. Just remember, players who are not having fun stop playing.

Jack

 

[Belen]

I expect, that everyplayer IMG plays his character as "good" as he can, in the way he envision his PC and how he expect to be the most fun.
With respect to the other players and my approval of fitting the Campaign.

If someone plays "worser" than the other, my first Question would be?
Where had I misunderstood the Character/Players desire

The second what goes wrong, what make I wrong ?

Abd that didn`t take into account that the "worser" player has less routine, is a less gifted actor or had an character who fals outside his normal stuff.

Is these anything deserving less XP?

I don`t believe I´d any right to educate any other player.

There is a difference between making the attempt to roleplay and not roleplaying at all. If someone comes to my tables and just rolls gather info etc all night long, speaks in the 3rd person, and just speaks in gamer speak, then they are SOL for RP award.

If someone tries, then that is all I require.

 

[Vigilance]

1st the last Sword i want to use on a battlefield is the katana, the steel is of low Qualitie.
This is a Problem of the Japanese Mines not of their Craft.
2 Most Bushi fought with Yari/Spear and Bow
3 No army had the sword as a main weapon.
4 Farmers in Japan were known as on swordsman, they were allowed to own the katana, the wakizashi was priviliged to the nobility and the samurai.
As Hideyoshi disarmed the farmersm hecalled their weapns in to make buddhastatues of them, great benefit tokarma and so on.

The mastercraftsmen in question made Bows, Swords and Spears. Did I really need to point that out? My point was that these craftsman were capable of making weapons that could tip the balance of power, and therefore those IN power took the material to make those weapons and the craftsmen capable of making it into their castles to gain an advantage over their rivals and to keep the peasants in line.

The analogy seems pretty clear here to magic weapons. If the peasant armies, led by the priests that took to the fields in revolt against the Samurai had been as well armed, do you think the Samurai would have prevailed? As it is a couple of these peasant revolts came dangerously close to succeeding, and one was only narrowly put down with the aid of Dutch ships firing cannons (another reason why the Japanese government kept modern gunpowder weapons out... even a good sword requires a lot of training to use... peasants can learn to use firearms effectively without a lot of training).

In other words... anything powerful enough to challenge the ruling elite (sophisticated firearms, high quality swords and spears, etc etc) was kept out of the hands of the ruled and in the hands of the rulers whenever possible.

This is a logical reason why there might not be any magic shops in a campaign. The government would see to the training of certain individuals (mages, priests, paladins) in an attempt to indoctrinate them and make them loyal to the state or king. They would also give these individuals significant societal perks (lands, titles, prestige, wealth) in an attempt to make them support the status quo (and thus the state) that was giving them these perqs.

Finally, they would regulate the items these individuals (the mages and the priests) could make so that anyone receiving them did so on the condition that they were supporting the state, not working against it.

Would this always work? No. Would revolts inevitably happen? Yes. Would items be sold by the churches and mage colleges who had them on the black market? Of course.

But all of this is dicier (and to my mind more compelling) than a Magic R Us Store.

Chuck

 

[sword-dancer]

There is a difference between making the attempt to roleplay and not roleplaying at all. If someone comes to my tables and just rolls gather info etc all night long, speaks in the 3rd person, and just speaks in gamer speak, then they are SOL for RP award.

If someone tries, then that is all I require.

For what did he then come?

 

[VirgilCaine]

Wizards are simply people with specific knowledge. We do not outlaw the free exchange of knowledge among scientists. In fact, the American nuclear bomb was only possible due to the knowledge we got from Russian scientists. Russia was working on a bomb of their own, but they never outlawed the science behind it. That's not to say all cultures would act like this, but there would at least be some, just as there would be some cultures who would allow the sale of magic, and some that would not.

An M16A2 is not a massive threat to stability, but they are still outlawed in many a country.

A mid-caliber bolt-action hunting rifle with a telscopic sight isn't, and neither is a small-caliber, concealable handgun, however the former was allegedly used, and the latter verfifiably used to assasinate U.S. Presidents. The latter was also used in several other assassinations or attempts--Ronald Reagan, Pope John Paul II, Archduke Ferdinand. AFAIK.

The hunting rifle is legal in lots more countries than the handgun is, I'd bet.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Thirdly, nowhere in the core rules does it say that there are magic shops.

From the DMG 3.5, page 142:

The magic items described in Chapter 7 all have prices. The assumption is that, while they are rare, magic items can be bought or sold much as any other commodity can be. The prices given are far beyond the reach of almost everyone, but the very rich, including mid- to high- level PCs, can buy and sell these items or even have spellcasters make them to order. In very large cities, some shops might specialize in magic items if their clientele is very wealthy or includes a large number of adventurer [sic] (and such shops would have lots of magical protections to ward away thieves). Magic items might even be available in normal markets and shops occasionally. For example, a weaponsmith might have a few magic weapons for sale along with her normal wares.

 

[Doug McCrae]

My point was, by pointing out two of the pillars the game of D&D was built on (by Gygax's own admission)... NEITHER of which had handy dandy market economies of magic items, that it is clearly a legitimate choice for how you run your game.

Gygax took the works of Tolkien and Howard (and those of many other writers) as inspiration and used elements from them to create something new. Something different. D&D is a genre in and of itself the nature of which can best be determined by reading the game rules.

If people want to run a Tolkien style game, which includes such irrationalities as Dragons, Elves, Dwarvwes, undead and *gasp* no market economy for magic... that is ALSO a legitimate choice.

But it deviates from the default D&D world as expressed in the core rules and is therefore not as legitimately D&D as one that is.