Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

[Belen]

I considered a guideline/rule of thumb...
If your PCs are should be ready for facing Challenge rating X they should be Level Y and have the appropiate gear for that Level.

Not at all. I design the challenges. I give out the equipment and experience. Thus, it is relatively easy to design encounters that challenge the PCs. And I never design a challenge for my players that has no solution.

Thus, wealth by level is irrelevant. There is nothing they NEED that will not be provided. Wealth by level and the CR system is a guideline. Not a rule set in stone. They are good for inexperienced GMs and give provide an example.

An experienced GM should feel free to create his/her own set of guidelines for PC awards.

Heck, I no longer even use the CR system for XP. Instead, I assign a specific amount of XP for each goal completed, length of time for game session, and role playing. XP in my game does not come from killing stuff, although I do make sure to get a general idea of the worth of encounters when designing the goal awards.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Bill Gates, that guy from Ikea, and the Wal-Mart familiy combined could not buy the Sistine Chapel. Are you trolling?

We aren't talking about buying the Sistine Chapel, however (which would, in D&D magic item terms, be an artifact).

We're talking about buying a church (rare, maybe not available here).

And since, in Boston, at least, there's an apartment complex that's a remodeled church, it's doable.

So, are you trolling?

 

[reanjr]

My question to the people who don't allow magical items to be sold (I'm one) is this: Do you allow PCs to commission something to be made? I know that quite a few people said that they stressed item creation feats in the party, but is this person supposed to create everything for the party? For example, if you have a ranger with a favored enemy of undead who wants a disruption weapon, yet the only spellcaster is a wizard (who doesn't have access to the heal spell), can he commission it from the local clergy or druids? What if he had to do a quest for them? On another note, could he quest for such an item as the Paladin would quest for his holy sword?

If it's an item that fits the character concept and something I agree the player should have story-wise, then I will usually place an appropriate item (usually greatly changed; I rarely use magic items from the DMG) somewhere in the world and somehow have the information that the item exists filter on through to the party. They may then quest for item itself, rather than for someone else to make it for them.

Personally, I allow rather easy access to items like a suit of +5 Plate Mail, or +5 Longsword if the PC is willing to take the time to get it. When I played if I saw a +5 Longsword as compared to a +1 Longsword I wouldn't get any sense of wonder... If in the same token I found a +1 Flaming Burst Longsword I would think it a lot cooler than the +5 Longsword. I also found that some of the more enjoyable items I've ever had were ones that one of my paladin created. The DM allowed me to spend several days in prayer at the local church to have my weapon better affect evil, the creation cost was given in tithing and the XP cost payed by the character. Occasionally I had to do some minor quest for my deity, but it wasn't anything major. The item had a real feel of being part of the character, and something that he worked hard for as he paid the cost for it. I would much rather my players have weapons they grow with, than new weapons they find or buy.

That's one of the reasons I don't let players buy magic. I would never give someone something as mundane as a longsword +4. I'd much rather give them a khopesh used by some ancient king that casts mass suggestion once per week and light three times per day, and happens to be a +2 weapon. I also have alchemical versions of potions where it makes sense (no alchemical fly potions, for instance). Rather than give a player a wand of cure light wounds, he's got a pouch filled with soil and maggots. By crushing a maggot and smearing it in his wounds, it acts as a cure light wounds after a few minutes. The maggots themselves are mundane and can be found in nature, but the bag is magically enchanted to keep up to 10 maggots fed and healthy inside. Each week there are missing maggots (less than 10), I roll 1d10; if the result is less than or equal to the number of maggots, one of them asexually reproduces and he gets a new maggot. This magical bag was gifted to him by the shaman of his tribe after he discovered an approaching enemy and saved the tribe. Or I could have let him buy a wand of cure light wounds as he wanted... I don't know, to me the "bag of worms" (as it is serendipitously referred to as) is a much better item to have in the game.

 

[Belen]

National Acrobat -> Take a look at the recent Rules of the Game article series in the WotC site. In part 7, Skip Williams mention a variant guideline that lets other characters constribute with the XP for making Magic Items. If the players who want the items can chalk up the XP and gp, maybe the players-who-won't-make-items will warm up to the idea.

We started doing this around a year before 3.5 came out. You'd be surprised at how few peole actually used this method.

 

[sword-dancer]

Yes, the ranger could commission the item or quest for it. In the case of commissioning, the ranger would need to find the right church. Either the Ranger would need to find a church whose goal was eradicating undead .

Let me get that clear, a church in your campaign expect to be rewarded, thar someone further their goal?

Not at all. I design the challenges. I give out the equipment and experience. Thus, it is relatively easy to design encounters that challenge the PCs. And I never design a challenge for my players that has no solution..

And the relevance to my post is?

.

Instead, I assign a specific amount of XP for each goal completed, ... XP in my game does not come from killing stuff,

maybe they changed that in 3.5 but IIRC XP were gained for overcoming obstacles.

role playing.

Perhaps you could give me an objective definition how to measure role playing that it would be an objective and fair to give XP for it.

 

[Belen]

Let me get that clear, a church in your campaign expect to be rewarded, thar someone further their goal?

Yep. No church is going to make something for someone just because they ask for it. That person will need to prove that they deserve the item. After all, the church will be directly harmed if someone misuses an item they made specifically for them.

maybe they changed that in 3.5 but IIRC XP were gained for overcoming obstacles.

As the GM, I set the obstacles/ challenges.

Perhaps you could give me an objective definition how to measure role playing that it would be an objective and fair to give XP for it.

Depends. There are objective and subjective RP awards. Everyone agrees at the end of the night who did the best RP job and they get and award. Below is another set of more objective RP awards.


Action Example Award
Donations to NPCs 1000 gold (4th level) = 250 xp 1 gold / level = 1 xp
Successful Diplomacy Negotiate NPC change of behavior 10 xp x DC
Successful Bluff Talk your way past the guards 10 xp x DC
Successful Intimidation Extract information from NPC 10 xp x DC
Successful Perform Impress an Audience 10 xp x DC (must aim)
Play a Quirk Get Drunk before a dungeon crawl 50 xp to 200xp
Play Alignment to one's Disadvantage CE character threatens an NPC with valuable information. 100 xp to 400xp
Ignore Alignment to one's advantage. NG character uses threats against commoners to get information -200 xp to -500xp
Support Party Make effort to encourage self and others to work with PL. 100 xp to 400xp
Hinder Party Resists the plans of the PL and/or hampers the play or party unity. -100 xp to -total award
Establish a Relationship Make a friend of an NPC alchemist 10 xp x DC
Make a Good Soliloquy Give a speech to townsfolk 50 xp
Stay in Character Use 1st person, avoid rules terms 100xp (whole session)
Enhance Genre to own detriment Sleep out of armor, carry real food, eschew watches, go unarmed in town, force marches, keep fires, etc. 50xp to 200xp

 

[Belen]

Perhaps you could give me an objective definition how to measure role playing that it would be an objective and fair to give XP for it.

And sometimes, it is a GM call. Subjective rulings do not automatically equate with unfair. Not everything can be measured and quantified. It is a ROLEplaying game. Everything is not meant to be quantified. If you want number heavy and extreme quantification, then there is always the computer.

In a game designed for the imagination, then you had better expect some degree of subjectivity.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

We aren't talking about buying the Sistine Chapel, however (which would, in D&D magic item terms, be an artifact).

We're talking about buying a church (rare, maybe not available here).

I wanted to add the following:

In many cases, you aren't even talking about buying churches.

You're talking about buying statuary or ornamentation that *used* to be in a church. Again, still rare, but there's a dealer in Boston who specializes in such things.

So, still doable.

 

[sword-dancer]

Yep. No church is going to make something for someone just because they ask for it. That person will need to prove that they deserve the item. After all, the church will be directly harmed if someone misuses an item they made specifically for them.

There is a difference between proving his worth/trustworth and rewarding/paying.

As the GM, I set the obstacles/ challenges.

Meaning?



Depends. There are objective and subjective RP awards. Everyone agrees at the end of the night who did the best RP job and they get and award. Below is another set of more objective RP awards.

Action Example Award
Donations to NPCs 1000 gold (4th level) = 250 xp 1 gold / level = 1 xp
Successful Diplomacy Negotiate NPC change of behavior 10 xp x DC
Successful Bluff Talk your way past the guards 10 xp x DC
Successful Intimidation Extract information from NPC 10 xp x DC
Successful Perform Impress an Audience 10 xp x DC (must aim)

These are nothing else than buying XP and overcoming obstacles.

Play a Quirk Get Drunk before a dungeon crawl 50 xp to 200xp

Play Alignment to one's Disadvantage CE character threatens an NPC with valuable information. 100 xp to 400xp

Disadvantage?

Ignore Alignment to one's advantage. NG character uses threats against commoners to get information -200 xp to -500xp

Ignoring Alignment?

Support Party Make effort to encourage self and others to work with PL. 100 xp to 400xp
Hinder Party Resists the plans of the PL and/or hampers the play or party unity. -100 xp to -total award

Roleplay XP? I would call Plot following XP

Establish a Relationship Make a friend of an NPC alchemist 10 xp x DC]

Overcoming Obstacle, build an advantage

Make a Good Soliloquy Give a speech to townsfolk 50 xp
Stay in Character Use 1st person, avoid rules terms 100xp (whole session)
Enhance Genre to own detriment Sleep out of armor, carry real food, eschew watches, go unarmed in town, force marches, keep fires, etc. 50xp to 200xp

What if these actsaaredetriment to the Character concept, and btw is perfectly possible, but not convenient, to sleep in armour, whichleads to theinteresting Quetion why thePCs do this?
If every 5 Minutes dark Elven Vampire Assassins with poisoned Adamanteen swords +7 pop out of the Limbo it`s perfectly justified and reasonable, it not to do would be the mistake.
In safe cities and so on my PCs usually don`t wear (heavy/medium at least) armour and weapons(except for Stament like it has ab symbolcal/spiritual etc meaning)

 

[sword-dancer]

Not at all. I design the challenges. I give out the equipment and experience. Thus, it is relatively easy to design encounters that challenge the PCs. And I never design a challenge for my players that has no solution..

And the relevance to my post is?

.

Instead, I assign a specific amount of XP for each goal completed, ... XP in my game does not come from killing stuff,

maybe they changed that in 3.5 but IIRC XP were gained for overcoming obstacles.

role playing.

Perhaps you could give me an objective definition how to measure role playing that it would be an objective and fair to give XP for it.