Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

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Storm Raven said:
How do you think, for example, Microsoft acquired Q-DOS? They purchased it (the only operating system intellectual property owned by the seller) for cash.

And what did they do? Turn around and revolutionize the world by making it so that modern commercial software is no longer for sale. You can only license it. Go make an offer to Microsoft for Windows. See how much you have to offer to make them sell. I guarentee it is an amount so insurmountably larger than its value that no one would ever buy it.
 

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Storm Raven said:
Explain the demographics, economics, and culture that override basic human nature.

Well, since you asked, I'll give you an example demographic. My family.
 
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Storm Raven said:
People want to have wealth. It's that simple.

You can quibble over the volume of wealth an individual wants, or how much they are willing to do to get it, but people want wealth (or more accurately, the things wealth represents: food, shelter, security, and so on).

What exactly then is the motivation for someone who has everything they want and need to sell anything? I would certainly assume powerful wizards are in this position. What could they possibly want that they could not have? And why would they care about money when they can fabricate, summon, call, etc.?

In any given population, a substantial number of people will want lots of wealth. That's generally why people invent things, go on dangerous journeys to strange lands looking for spices, gold, and other rare commodities, and otherwise do things they might not otherwise do.

Are you really intentionally ignoring all the pure scientists, garage-techies, thrill-seekers, etc. in the world as insignificant to your argument?

To avoid a market economy arising in a campaign, you must posit a human nature in which humans do not desire wealth (as in, do not desire to secure food, shelter, security and so on), changing the basic nature of humanity into something so unrecognizable that you cannot reasonably call them "human" any more.

OK, but the only people who have the skill to create such items are invariably the same people who have met these desires.
 
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Storm Raven said:
Probably easier. The di Medici's purchased huge volumes of art on a regular basis, and are resonsible for the mere existence of a substantial chunk of Italian renaissance art being produced (as a result of their financing). Prior to the romanticization of the past that has taken place in the modern era, these sorts of things were regularly traded.

You are talking about the seller again because you can't make an argument for the buyer.

Where do most adventurers operate? Is it a vanue more like the United States and Canada? Or more like Somalia? Do you fully comprehend just how much ordinance is available for sale in most of the Third World?
 
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Numion said:
Wouldn't that kind of thinking require that all wizards and sorcerers be banned and / or closely monitored too? Because a spellcaster packs much more punch than magic items, aren't they more dangerous than magic items you labeled as equal to WMDs?

Wizards are simply people with specific knowledge. We do not outlaw the free exchange of knowledge among scientists. In fact, the American nuclear bomb was only possible due to the knowledge we got from Russian scientists. Russia was working on a bomb of their own, but they never outlawed the science behind it. That's not to say all cultures would act like this, but there would at least be some, just as there would be some cultures who would allow the sale of magic, and some that would not.

And of course, your analogy only holds for doomsday device magics, i.e. artifact level stuff. +3 sword is not a threat to stability. It's equal to non-masterwork sword wielded by a stronger person. Do strong persons cause instability? Why should they be banned or restricted from sale?

An M16A2 is not a massive threat to stability, but they are still outlawed in many a country.
 

Staffan said:
The normal rate of XP to gp is 5 gp per XP. And when I offered the artificer in the party to trade in XP for gold (at a rate of 625 gp per 30 XP, due to having the two feats from Eberron that let him make items for 75% of the normal creation cost in gold and in XP - normally, it would be 500 gp per 40 XP), his reaction was "Whee! I'm rich!"

And what did he spend the money on?

If it is magic items then you are using circular reference. The market for magic items has to be there before the artificer is willing to sell XP for GP. And the people have to be willing to sell XP for GP before there is a market for magic items. Critical Mass much first be reached.
 

Ridley's Cohort said:
Whether you can do that today or it take several weeks is just quibbling over mechanics. I believe the going rate for buying healthy babies is around US$30K on the black market. (These are often mostly legit adoptions, it is just the manner of involving money in the transaction is considered unethical & illegal -- for good reason.)

That is pretty cheap considering how many XP the mother sunk into making that baby.

True, but if you cut out those women who accidentally got pregnant or circumstances changed since conception to warrent the giving up of the baby, and only focus on those mothers who actually set out to get pregnant to earn money, you have a market so small that not all those willing to pay are going to be able to find a seller.
 

jmucchiello said:
Too much to reply to to actually go back and quote it all...

Item Creation Feats: Do you allow the players sufficient down time to make proper use of Item Creation? I have stopped getting item creation feats for my mages and clerics because most campaigns I play in ramp up to rollercoaster speed in a hurry and you just cannot stop for a week to make an item.

May campaigns are very reactive. If the players want to chill for a while, they have ample opportunity.

Mideval Times and the lack of Inventory: Someone put forth that the modern concept of Shops in general do not exist in a feudal world. If this was the world put forth by the rules, then all items, magical and mundane, would be listed with a price and a time. "I'd like to buy a grappling hook, good sir." "Smitty can probably make you one in about 2 weeks time. You should go ask him."

Yup, that's how I do things. I assume a smith has a small supply of daggers, shortswords, and whatever regional weapon is popular. Beyond that, you wait for it. Items often times sell for prices that differ from that in the PHB as well. As a rule of thumb, a regional weapon is cheaper, while an ordered item is more expensive. War-torn regions also have cheaper or (once they become extremely wartorn) more expensive weapons. Plate Armor is never bought off-the shelf (breastplate, full plate, etc.). Only very rarely would one find a masterwork item on the shelf (unless it is a regional thing; i.e. all bows sold in the Elven lands might be masterwork by default). The Craft skill gives you a time to make, though if you do this stuff all the time, as I do, you tend to ignore that for more reasonable numbers.

Questing for Item Components: The inherent flaw with this is by time I have quested for the item components, I'm 3 levels higher than when I started out and I no longer desire that item, but a more powerful item instead. And again, this puts the main plot on hold for long periods of time.

Why weren't you questing for the item you wanted to have in 3 levels? And not every adventure is part of some story arc. Maybe the last main BBEG was just taken care of and now the characters want to go out and do some personal questing. Players should create their own hooks and not rely on the DM to. Especially if they expect the DM to do things how they want.

Magic Item Shop: You see a nicely appointed room with a single desk in its center. There is a large, stuffed chair behind the desk and two smaller chairs on your side of the desk. In the far corners of the room are two finely carved statues of strong fighting men. A curtain blocks your view of the room off to the right. The middle-aged man behind the desk stands and greets you in the customary way. "How can I help you?" he asks.

The important fact here is that there are no magic items on display. Everything in the room can be commands to attack with a single word from the broker. His "stock" is located elsewhere in a place proof against detection and whose only means of entry is teleportation. There is also a similar room called the treasury. The stock room and the treasury are not connected. Behind the curtain is an empty room which he uses to teleport to the stock room. He casts teleport to get in and out of the stock room. He accepts payment up front and takes the payment to the treasury. Leaving it there for at least a week before moving it to his "bank" of money. If payment is not in gold, he takes the payment to the treasury, then goes to the stock room for the item. Thus trojan horse payments never arrive in the stock room. This is doable by a 10th-12th level wizard on his own. With a few partners and some ambition the number of shops can be very plentiful.

Never been a fan of teleportation myself. My players and I have an understanding that if they don't abuse it, I won't abuse it. My players can only do one of two things if they are attached to their characters. Piss me off or Make me abuse things. If they do both, they will lose. Ultimately, again, it boils down to the flavor you want for a campaign. If you want magic items for sale, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't. And there is no argument of logic that would make this decision wrong.

Purchasing Magic is a Video Game Idea: The 1e DMG has prices listed for magic items. Please reconcile these two contradictory concepts.

Prices on magic items are intended to rate one magic item against another. Not to relate them to GP. They chose GP because it is useful if you do want to have magic items and GP relate. IIRC, Monte Cook wrote about this. You could have just as easily rated them in Magic Item Value Units (MIVUs). The cost of creation could be based on the MIVUs rating and XP cost to create the item. This would have worked just as well, except those people who want to convert MIVUs to GP can save themselves a step by just using GP in the first place.

I've played in games where you could buy magic items in all editions of the game. It's just more commonplace in 3e.

Well, most video games are based on D&D, but with permutations different focus. But then D&D 3e is marketed towards a generation that grew up with video games. I'm not saying that selling magic items is a video game thing, but D&D 3e is a lot closer to all those video games based on 1e than 1e was.

Trading Rare Items: The Shroud of Turin is not for sale because it is unique, not rare. Individual paintings are unique, but Van Goth's paintings (on the whole) are merely rare. While each one is unique, any one of them could be on sale at any given time. How does one find out one is on sale? Any number of divinations would probably work.

If it's not for sale? There are still a very limited number of many items.
 

It seems to me like has a lot of expenses. A lot of debts to pay back. Are you arguing that someone with this sort of financial investment and debt load wouldn't be out trying to make that money back? It seems to me like clerics and wizards (given the economic conditions you describe with long years of study and training) are almost driven to market their services and ware just to pay for all of these expensive things you assume they have.

I think what was being argued was that the price would be much higher than market price. The market price would be the sale of an item from consumer to consumer. But the price from supplier to consumer would much higher. This creates an unsustainable market. For instance, if I want a table that is exactly ergonomically fit to my specifications and of a particular material, I might spend quite a bit of money getting it made for me. If I went to sell it to someone, they wouldn't pay me half of what it cost me, even if it were brand new. The item's value isn't actually that high. So, yes you can just throw more money into the equation, but see how many players are gonna do that.
 

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
Not agreed. Some people have, in fact, argued exactly this point:

I can not speak for everyone, but at least the quote from me was not intended to be taken as absolute. It's a lot easier to skip writing ", except under unusual circumstances" and ", unless they are willing to put hordes of money into it" after every sentence. I think the straw man comment was on the ball.









Note he first mentions that he'll never, ever let PCs buy things - except they can buy them with things other than straight coinage, which can in turn be bought with coinage, etc.

Bit of an odd view to hold, but there you go ...

Anyway, there you go. The position that you claim is a straw man is in fact the position held by members of "the opposition" by their own words. Therefore, it isn't a strawman.[/QUOTE]
 

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