Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

[mmadsen]

I said:

I don't think that anyone has said that no one would ever, under any circumstances, sell any magic item, even under commission, even for a non-pecuniary price.

Patryn of Elvenshae countered, "Not agreed. Some people have, in fact, argued exactly this point," and cited National Acrobat's original point:

I'm old school, been playing DnD since 1979, and I have always been firm that players can't buy magic items. Without getting into the pros and cons of it, I never have and never will.

I don't see that contradicting my point at all. He says that he doesn't let his players buy magic items. He doesn't say, no one in the game world can ever exchange anything magical under any circumstances.

If you're playing in a Tolkien-esque setting, you don't just buy magic items -- but certainly someone might reward you with a magic item, or you might perform a favor for a magic item, or you might give a magic item in return for a favor, or whatever. Presumably someone forged the elf blade you're using, and someone else bought it, long before it ended up in the wight's burial mound you plundered. You just don't find magic shops lining the streets of Gondor. When your players say, "I want to buy a +4 longsword," you say, "No." There's no plausible way they'd "just" go out and buy one. If the halfling rogue says, "I want to sell my +4 mithril chain shirt; the wizard said it was worth a king's ransom," you say, "Exactly how do you plan on selling it?"

I don't think a house rule of "PCs can't just buy magic" equates to "my campaign ignores supply and demand!"

 

[Faraer]

Why would you want to DM for players who want the rulebook to take precedence over the campaign, or who make selfish powergaming demands?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

A quasi-Roman setting might feature fairly sophisticated markets. A quasi-Venetian setting might, too. A Tolkien-esque, Anglo-Saxon setting would not. There's a lot of "friction" in a pre-capitalist economy, just like in a modern black market.

For all that friction, in the historical medieval world, people did buy and sell horses and weapons and armor -- some of these items might be the equivalent of a year or two of income for a landed knight. Only a few per cent of the population was allowed to possess these items. Communication and travel sucked. But the deals happened. It often took weeks or months, but the transactions completed with little fraud and theft, and a typical commission tacked on in the 10%-15% range. As for the social barriers preventing owning these items, a letter from a friendly baron or a fake title from a foreign land took care of that.

The world of D&D has much better communications. There is really no logical reason that a PC who has done a few favors for locals could not get involved in very safe transactions in, I would guestimate, the 1000 gp to 5000 gp range -- much higher amounts if their reputation is positive and grows. I would further note that a PC that is selling and buying is paying a rather high implicit commission.

 

[mmadsen]

Some how the silk and spice trade came into existence, in spite of the exact things you mentioned. Some how tin was mined in bronze age Britain and moved into the Med to be sold as a commodity in spite of the risks.

Yes, and the individuals making those journeys and voyages to bring back valuable goods from faraway lands were known as...adventurers.

Any particular trip was a risky endeavor. In the aggregate, of course, they paid off, which is why insurance was feasible (and thus developed).

My POV is not that every item should easily available or even available at all on any given day or year. But eventually the campaign progresses to a point where it is not worth roleplaying out a PC traveling to the big city to cash in a +1 spear and a +1 dagger to acquire a +1 bow. It is not logical. It is not fun.

And no one's recommending playing out a trip to the big city to cash in a +1 spear. We agree: it's not fun.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Only if you think xp aren't worth anything.

Well the DMG sets the XP cost for an item as 1/25th of the base value. If you feel this is too low - more power to you. I, on the other hand, will continue to use it.

Oh and for permanent magic items the PC usually has to supply the actual item (the Wizard or Cleric provides the addtional manufacturing costs). AFter all what does your average wizard know about making a fine set of boots or a longbow?

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Oh please I am old school too. I guess I played on the wrong side of tracks and with bad players. In the beginning magic shops were in every big town until we started knocking them off and stealing the loot. They did it to my world which in turn I did in theirs. Which then started either every magic shop being ran by a 20+ level wizard, or god. Then end with the magic shop from the n-dimension which would appear when you needed it and ran by a 20+ level wizard with lots of guards.
Sorry played in different editions, on different coasts, on different continents. It is the players not the system or computer games or immature players or current culture.

Well said. My sentiments exactly.

If anyone needs proof that this is 100% true just read some of the old Dragon and Dungeon magazines letters sections.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Not a surprising suggestion, considering that the topic is pretty much about DM control. Banning all sale of magic items lets the DM control when, how and what magic items the PCs use.

Next logical step is that if the DM has to concede and let some items be bought .. the items won't do what the players want, but what the DM wants.

Yes not really surprising just very dissappointing and probably something I would be tempted to quit the campaign over.

Also the original poster seems to really want his players to make the items themselves (which is one of the best things about 3.xx solid, usuable rules for making most any magic item you can think of - and limits on who and when you can make them!). Frankly I have to think his players are just whiny.

 

[taliesin15]

mmadsen writes:
A quasi-Roman setting might feature fairly sophisticated markets. A quasi-Venetian setting might, too. A Tolkien-esque, Anglo-Saxon setting would not. There's a lot of "friction" in a pre-capitalist economy, just like in a modern black market.


I just had to contribute after reading that--MC is basically Tolkienish/Anglo-Saxon, but with much more Viking/Lapps/Germanic "barbarians"/Celt, and kinda low tech high magic--no crossbows, tindertwigs, sunrods; very magic based, but the magic is more in the form of larger numbers of spells out there to choose from, much more low level magic

But while players cannot go to any shop and buy a +1 sword in any town or city--in fact, they can't even find things like composite bows in most shops, much less mighty composite bows--the people they could get them from are not that hard to find, since *everyone* on the continent has heard of the great (very high level) Wizard Folcwin, advisor to the King, with a high profile School of Dweomercraft in the only largish city on the continent

IOW, I guess it depends on the campaign--but I think with most DMs, the material is out there, this whining I think is more of a circumstance or reflection of the present consumer society we live in where one can buy even say Cuban cigars with a credit card over the internet even in the USA, or a $5,000 Bastard Sword, or even a full set of Plate Armor

part of the problem with this lies with the fact that the perception of availability is perpetuated by the fact that the commodification of the game itself lends to this mindset--IOW, Joe Blow can buy the Player's Handbook and all manner of Eberron material in a bookshop a ten minute drive from where I sit now in, let's see, easily 6 directions, and there it all is, detailed lists of potions, etc., and then this campaign says anytime my character kills a CR5 monster, there should be something like a +2 weapon & the like

kind of a failure in imagination, IMV--makes me wonder, why aren't there more players interested in playing heroes, or at least imaginative adventurers, rather than a bunch of shoe-shoppers at the mall

 

[scourger]

The adventure I'm currently running, Flood Season from the Shackled City in Dungeon, had a web enhancment with a magic shop. I decided to try it. The players, all 25+ year veterans like me, loved it. They just wanted to enjoy their rewards. And, it seems to me that 3.0/3.5 presume a certian level of magic stuff. As long as it's fun, I'm OK with it. But I would run a game in which magic items are not commodities, either (which would make item creation feats worthwhile).

 

[Ourph]

Interesting analysis, Ourph. I think you've got a cool campaign-setting idea there.

Thanks! My players seem to think so (though sometimes the Wizards go a little cross-eyed when they start talking about covertly breaking guild rules and wake up with their familiar's head (and only their head) in the bed beside them. ).