Players Who Are Too Smart?

[Odhanan]

I don't think the problem would be "PCs who are too smart". That's a sort of condescending outlook at the situation from a DM's part.

Whenever you've got an issue with the game, as a DM or player, you shouldn't so much ask yourself who holds the most responsability in the situation (whether the players are getting out of the adventure or not, whether they're too bold, whether you know how to improvise or not, etc) as you should be wondering what you, DM, can do about it. Look at what you can do instead of what you and the players have done. It's much easier to control and tailor your own actions and reactions than the actions and reactions of others during the game (plus, it breaks the suspension of disbelief when you do that. Like yelling to the players "Have fun, dammit!" -doesn't help much really).

Instead, always assume as a DM that the players will inevitably come up with solutions, plans and actions that you did not foresee. Sure, you can come to know the people you play with and thus plan for probable courses of action, but you won't ever be accurate 100% of the time.

And this is great!

Great, because it makes the game fun for you as well. If everything was set and you could foresee the actions of the PCs all the time, the game would become quite boring for you, DM. Parts of the best moments of running games for me come when PCs imagine some course of action, or some interpretation of clues disseminated within the game, that I did not foresee at all. I just roll with it, "keep the game going", and it makes all the difference for me, because then, my imagination and adaptability are challenged.

A DM who would not want to be challenged by the players' ideas and PCs actions would have to reconsider his role as a DM.

 

[MarkB]

2) Scent doesn't give the ability to "smell race" or anything like that. The wolves will be able to detect him via Scent, but that won't give them a bonus to look through the disguise. They do have higher Spot checks, so they might get a chance to make Spot checks vs. the Psion.

Humans almost certainly smell very different than Orcs. Any creature whose sense of smell is acute enough that it gains the Scent ability will be able to tell the difference.

I'm guessing you mean 'Take 20' rather than 'Take 10' here, right?

Nope. Take 10 + Hat of Disguise +2 skill = 22.

Of course, that's the base DC. He's getting -2 for disguising as a different race, so that's a total of 20.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

I completely agree with you. I was really disappointed with this article, mostly for point 6 that you cite below. People who write articles for the WoTC site should have a better grasp of the rules.

Ken

The author makes a couple of errors in pointing out the flaws.

1) If the Psion has a Disguise bonus greater than the orcs' Spot check, he can Take 10 and he won't have to roll. The orcs won't be able to roll that high. (eg. Psion has +2, and Takes 10 when he dons the Disguise. He gets a 22. Orcs have a +1 Spot check, so the highest they can roll is a 21.)

2) Scent doesn't give the ability to "smell race" or anything like that. The wolves will be able to detect him via Scent, but that won't give them a bonus to look through the disguise. They do have higher Spot checks, so they might get a chance to make Spot checks vs. the Psion.

3) He's right on the money here.

4) Whatever.

5) He needs to make a Bluff check to pretend to be dead. It's that simple.

6) Second paragraph. You can supress a psionic manifestation with a DC 15 + power level Concentration check. That's not an action. Plus, the auditory effect could come from the target, even if the check fails, and it requires a DC 10 listen check for everyone within 15 feet. Outside that range, it can't be heard.

7) If the Psion can make a Bluff check, he'll be fine. The orcs should get a +5, maybe a +10, on their Sense Motive checks. Also, the Psion needs to win Initiative, or else the orcs will attack him first.


The article kind of smells like, "Smart player ruin DM plan! DM smash!"

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Yes, I'd agree that the Scent feat would give the psion away, since Hat of Disguise doesn't provide an olfactory illusion. A good reason to target the wolves first ;-)

Ken

Humans almost certainly smell very different than Orcs. Any creature whose sense of smell is acute enough that it gains the Scent ability will be able to tell the difference.


Nope. Take 10 + Hat of Disguise +2 skill = 22.

Of course, that's the base DC. He's getting -2 for disguising as a different race, so that's a total of 20.

 

[Quickleaf]

Just remember to keep it up! As long as you challenge the players AND their characters, then a great time will be had by all. Oh, and remember, if in any given situation, you don't know what the probability of success is, it is 50%. DC 10 is your friend!

There is no "player too smart" problem - the problem is either "social contract/rules aren't clear" or "player is breaking the social contract/rules."
See this thread for ideas about challenging the players.

 

[Felon]

You know, considering the topic is "players who are too smart", this really doesn't seem like a good example. By what stretch of the imagination does utilizing an area-affect attack to annihlate a mass of low-HP creatures constitute a particularly inobvious tactic to consider? That's what artillery magic is for. And gee, using a hat of disguise to fool stupid monsters, nobody's ever thought of doing that before. Next they'll be telling us that gamers are using animals from a bag of tricks as trap-detectors.

 

[Felon]

Is it wrong for me to be further prejudiced against psionics with this example? 40-foot radius burst? No visual effect linking it to the manifester? Can't even be heard from 15 feet away? I don't know psionics, but I know what I don't like.

Sounds like a fairly low-level character too, although I don't see his actual level revealed, the attacks seems to do 5d8 damage.

 

[fusangite]

I'm none too impressed with the article or the situation. LostSoul makes some really solid points.

But, if I may hijack the thread, there is a player I used to have, whom Teflon Billy also had in several of his games, who looks not for holes in the plot but holes in the system. This player, who has degrees in mathematics and English literature, and is pursuing a PhD at the moment, has an incredible ability to detect the holes in a game system and exploit them in thoroughly unpleasant ways.

In my most recent interaction with him as a player, he decided to pour energy into Charisma-based skills so the he could involve as many unstatted NPCs in whatever he was doing as he possibly could. Knowing that I lacked mass combat rules, he attempted to seize control of the plot by staying within the rules but creating situations the rules were unable to handle.

That's my definition of a player who is too smart.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

LostSoul, looks like you have some errors as well..

1) As you pointed out above, Take 10 would get a total of 20, something an Orc could spot

2) Scent would indeed identify that there was a non-Orc.. this is a highly sensitive ability that is used to track people..

3) Yup..

4) Okay, your saying that 300 Orcs are going to be packed one in like sardines around a bonfire for warmth? Some issues with that. Remember, this isn't the article's authors scenario, its one mailed in to AskWOTC...

5) And Bluff checks are standard actions, altho it really doesn't matter. A large explosion just toasted 150 of your war-buddies... do you look in at the blast or find cover and look for the mage who cast the spell? So your Psion takes out half the bad guys, then has to pretend to be dead for a fair bit of the fight.

6) Gots to love Psionics...

7) Yup

The article kind of smells like, "Smart player ruin DM plan! DM smash!"

I got the feeling it was "Smart player increase the challange, and challenge is good. DM's should know and use the relevant rules."
The particular scenario, with 300 orcs around a campfire, is a bit oddball. IMC this would be a tactic that could take out a small portion of the war band, but then the PC's would be facing an irate bunch of Orcs...not because I want to 'smash' the players fun, but because I would play the Orcs as something besides cardboard stand-ups for the PC's to slaughter.

{and this isn't even getting into the whole war-band setup, each war-band is 30 to 100 Orcs strong, so this 300 Orc Army is 3 warbands. Of these, about 90 would be 3rd level, 15 would be 5th level, and 9 would be 7th level....one of the leaders would be a Cleric of Grummish and there is bound to be a Witch Doctor in the house.... sneaking into this would be a recipe for disaster..now, sneaking in and playing the bands against each other might work... or might get your skull caved in for your trouble }

I have to admit tho, the article reads more like someones post on a message board than an 'authoratative' answer from WOTC.

 

[Christian]

LostSoul, looks like you have some errors as well..

1) As you pointed out above, Take 10 would get a total of 20, something an Orc could spot.

If the Psion has a 10 Charisma and no ranks in disguise. He stated (as an assumption) that the Psion had a +2 bonus normally, which I'd say is probably conservative. (I've my character had scored a Hat of Disguise, I'd probably put at least a few skill points into Disguise, precisely to let me pull off stunts like this reliably ...)