Playing a Warlord sucks!!

I played my second game of 4th edition yesterday as a Tiefling Warlord (Tactically focused rather than Inspirationally) and I have to say, I had an absolute ball. Some of this has to do with the other PCs (Drow Fighter, Dragonborn Paladin, Human Ranger (two sword focus) and Eladrin Wizard). With three melee types, he was there running the show telling people where to go and how to strike (his focus was on learning other peoples abilities and making them better). With a high intelligence (18), strength (16) and charisma (15), he was able to give some excellent bonuses and use powers really well (Commander's Strike [standard - at will] where you get someone to attack for you is highly effective).

I think to play a warlord though, you really have to focus on being a leader and roleplaying that (none of this Robin to someone else's Batman rubbish). You direct combat, push the other PCs (that is get them to use action points, giving them a good bonus to hit and damage) and generally be a leader. You make sure your group plays as a team and you get rewarded from the group success (that you directly co-ordinated) rather than the personal. If you are just there to have your PC dish out as much damage as possible, other roles would seem more suitable. YMMV.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

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Vaslov

Explorer
Serves you right for playing this abomination that dared replace the bard.

Replace the bard! Noooo! :eek: I'm sure Bard will get it's due when it comes in PBH #whatever.

It's frustrating when all your powers are melee based and melee support and no one, including the majority of the NPCs are entering melee combat.

Agreed. Ranged combat does seem to gimp what warlords can do. I've been brainstorming about how to help out the ranged side of things, but so far nothing has come up.

I'm also curious how well warlords will do as we level. We will still need to hit as we level up which for most powers means kicking up Strength. But our powers are tied to INT or CHA. It could be a bad case of MAD, but before declaring that I want to give it a run through. Some of these things read worse than they run.

If there are any out there that have played warlords in the paragon or above tiers I would be very interested in your experiences. Ranged combat has to be more common as you hit level 10+. How did the class run?

...since we play over the internet...

That does make it a bit more of a challenge. I like the macro idea! I'm having fun coming up with little verbal queues to my actions. 'Hey Mage! Don't let that kobold get you down. You stand up and nuke his :D' = healing.

To use 4e terminology, healing/buffing is not fun
This is a healing/buffing class. By all accounts I will agree that those that enjoy this type of role are in the minority, but we are out there. As for the archtypes I can think of a few, but I'm sure others would see the same characters in another light. (i.e. oh, he's a great fighter, etc). The examples that come to my mind include Simon of Memory, Sorrow and Thorn and Strum Brightblade (yeah, I know. Paladin icon. Think of this as Strum Pre-return of the gods. Or any of the DL Knight groups for that matter. I'm sure I'll be sent to the dog house for even suggesting it.).
 

Ulrick

First Post
I ran 4e for the first time tonight. I enjoyed it.

As for the Warlord. One player said, "The warlord is awesome. It's like the 3.5e bard, but better!" :lol:
 

Serves you right for playing this abomination that dared replace the bard.

Seriously, I didn't think there would be more classes like this in light of the 3e cleric's problem (he had to be overpowered just to make someone accept being the party's healbot.)

This is just another example of why these roles don't work. The only necessary combat role was meatshield. Everything else is needlessly forcing a strategy on a character. To use 4e terminology, healing/buffing is not fun, it shouldn't be a single character's task. There is no reason why a wizard couldn't heal or a fighter couldn't inspire in combat. Just give the cleric and bard an out of combat advantage in these domains.
If the fighter lacked options so badly, why not give him a few well-chosen inspirational and tactical powers, instead of making a sub-par fighter class based on the tired "hit = allies get random bonus" mechanic?
Healing and Buffing alone isn't fun, but hitting enemies and buffing/healing together is fun.

The roles work quite well. There is no automatic need to define classes by roles, but it's most helpful to have all 4 roles covered. Linking Class and Role ensures that everyone knows which roles are covered and by whom. The classic Cleric/Rogue/Wizard/Fighter party that was the default assumption for 3E CRs was, in a way, also defining the roles groups had to cover. They weren't exactly the same roles as in 4E. The role of the Rogue also included "dealing with traps", which is not related to any 4e (combat) role. The Clerics "anti-undead" abilities were factored into the design assumptions on Undeads, and if you didn't have a Cleric, you noticed that when not fighting undead. That was of course a very small part of his role, but still an aspect no other "Cleric-like" class covered - Druid or Bards just couldn't do much to help there.

The "Healer" is a role required in every game, even outside of D&D. The moment people enter combat, they need healing. Not all games support much in-combat healing, but after combat, they still require it very often.
D&D requires in-combat healing to survive - Your "Meat Shield" won't survive for long when in melee with a powerful monster.
A game doesn't necessarily require buffs, but there is a tendency in most games to have them, because buffs provide a way of resource management & strategy - who do I grant the benefits, or against which opponent do I grant them?
It is "forcing strategy" in a way, but it is the kind of force that makes the game more interesting with it then without.


Flavour-wise, this so called warlord isn't even an archetype. Any inspiring hero I can think of is an outstanding warrior first (or mage or trickster or whatever shtick he has) or he actually has people under his command, or both. The warlord is neither.
If it is of any consolation for you, the Warlord is an outstanding warrior, too. I think I hit more often the Paladin and might even have been able to out-damage him in a few situations. Though it was even more effective to give the Paladin a little help.
 


lutecius

Explorer
Healing and Buffing alone isn't fun, but hitting enemies and buffing/healing together is fun.

The roles work quite well. There is no automatic need to define classes by roles, but it's most helpful to have all 4 roles covered. Linking Class and Role ensures that everyone knows which roles are covered and by whom. The classic Cleric/Rogue/Wizard/Fighter party that was the default assumption for 3E CRs was, in a way, also defining the roles groups had to cover. They weren't exactly the same roles as in 4E. The role of the Rogue also included "dealing with traps", which is not related to any 4e (combat) role. The Clerics "anti-undead" abilities were factored into the design assumptions on Undeads, and if you didn't have a Cleric, you noticed that when not fighting undead. That was of course a very small part of his role, but still an aspect no other "Cleric-like" class covered - Druid or Bards just couldn't do much to help there.
Precisely, those abilities were appropriate for the classes’ flavour, not dictated by artificial combat roles.
Now I think that making every class as useful in and out of combat is a good thing.

The "Healer" is a role required in every game, even outside of D&D. The moment people enter combat, they need healing. Not all games support much in-combat healing, but after combat, they still require it very often.
D&D requires in-combat healing to survive - Your "Meat Shield" won't survive for long when in melee with a powerful monster.
A game doesn't necessarily require buffs, but there is a tendency in most games to have them, because buffs provide a way of resource management & strategy - who do I grant the benefits, or against which opponent do I grant them?
It is "forcing strategy" in a way, but it is the kind of force that makes the game more interesting with it then without.
I didn’t say that healing/ buffing wasn’t necessary, just that it shouldn’t be a class’s main role, especially in combat. In older editions, nobody in my group would care if we had a designated healer or buffer in combat. All we needed was the healing potential, it could be one or several minor healers or just potions. Now that "inspiration" can restore hit points, it’s even easier to extend this ability to other classes. Same thing for buffs. Regardless of the old balance issues, do you think wizard shouldn’t have Enlarge or Haste because buffs aren’t the classe’s prerogative?

Meatshield on the other hand is necessary, because spellcasters would be really overpowered if they had enough hps to resist most attacks. But unlike the healbot or buffbot, being the defender doesn’t prevent you from having fun, whether others play along or not. You’re just useful by being there, in the way.


If it is of any consolation for you, the Warlord is an outstanding warrior, too. I think I hit more often the Paladin and might even have been able to out-damage him in a few situations. Though it was even more effective to give the Paladin a little help.
In 4e, an outstanding warrior is mostly represented by his warrior powers, not by his chances to hit. A Paladin is not just a warrior, flavour-wise, so he shouldn’t be as good at warriory things like raw damage.
The problem with the warlord is that it’s basically the same archetype as fighter. Just a fighter with inspirational and tactical talents. At best it should be a fighter build, not something to base a whole class on. Give him too much healing/buffing on top of fighting efficiency and he is overpowered (like the 3e cleric was), give him these powers at the cost of fighting efficiency, then he’s just a subpar fighter as soon as others don't cooperate.

I think to play a warlord though, you really have to focus on being a leader and roleplaying that (none of this Robin to someone else's Batman rubbish). You direct combat, push the other PCs (that is get them to use action points, giving them a good bonus to hit and damage) and generally be a leader. You make sure your group plays as a team and you get rewarded from the group success (that you directly co-ordinated) rather than the personal. If you are just there to have your PC dish out as much damage as possible, other roles would seem more suitable. YMMV.
For that you need others to play along. More often than not, a character who shouts orders or worse, a player always telling others what to do (I’m not sure which one you meant) is not cool and bound to attract "friendly fireballs" at some point.
 
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Wormwood

Adventurer
I'm seriously considering dropping my Warlock (whose contribution is limited by the party Rogue, Ranger, and Wizard) and rolling up a Fighter so I can maximize the Warlord's contribution.

Party-oriented play? Yeah, I'm getting used to it.
 

Imaro

Legend
I'm seriously considering dropping my Warlock (whose contribution is limited by the party Rogue, Ranger, and Wizard) and rolling up a Fighter so I can maximize the Warlord's contribution.

Party-oriented play? Yeah, I'm getting used to it.

I mean this is great...if you want to play a fighter... but I still think it's wrong for a particular classes "fun" to be based on other peoples choices, both in and out of the game. To me that's not about party-oriented play... it's about a badly thought out premise that places certain limitations on player choices. YMMV of course.
 

Wormwood

Adventurer
I mean this is great...if you want to play a fighter...
But that's the thing---seeing Mark's Warlod in action makes me *want* to play a fighter (a class I generally like, but it's not my first choice).

If I play a fighter, both of our play experiences improve (or so it seems). That was my point.
 

Imaro

Legend
But that's the thing---seeing Mark's Warlod in action makes me *want* to play a fighter (a class I generally like, but it's not my first choice).

If I play a fighter, both of our play experiences improve (or so it seems). That was my point.

I understood your point...I was just making my own in that, it only works out that way if that is the character class [B[you[/B] want to play... otherwise you just end up playing a character you didn't want to so Mark can have fun.
 

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