[Playtest 2] Weapons and Armor

[Iapetus]

I don't like displacer beast hide or dragon scale being standard...

I think they are in there for 2 reasons; firstly that characters are expected to get all the way to level 5 and should be at that point be able to get superior armors, not to mention have a use their money at all. The second reason is just to tell players that they are looking into and working on the higher levels, I mean I thought that 4e focused too much on level 1 and leveling up didn't do much for the players. These are just my thoughts, I would appreciated seeing different views.

 

[Chronikoce]

I believe the 2d6 weapons have been removed because in previous editions they were balanced by giving 1d12 weapons a high critical modifier. Since crits now equal max damage that just means that 2d6 is on average always better than a d12.

As for armor:
Light = AC + Dex Mod
Medium = AC + Dex Mod (max 2)
Heavy = AC

As far as I can tell this means that a negative dex mod does not effect you in Heavy Armor at all! This means that high Str fighters can Dump Dex while in previous editions a dex below 10 killed you regardless of what armor you were in.

I actually really like this because it opens up options for roleplaying. If I don't have to focus on Dex to stay alive then I can make an intelligent/charismatic fighter who wears heavy armor and can be effective even though his Dex score is an 8 or less.

 

[Grazzt]

I believe the 2d6 weapons have been removed because in previous editions they were balanced by giving 1d12 weapons a high critical modifier. Since crits now equal max damage that just means that 2d6 is on average always better than a d12.

As for armor:
Light = AC + Dex Mod
Medium = AC + Dex Mod (max 2)
Heavy = AC

As far as I can tell this means that a negative dex mod does not effect you in Heavy Armor at all! This means that high Str fighters can Dump Dex while in previous editions a dex below 10 killed you regardless of what armor you were in.

I actually really like this because it opens up options for roleplaying. If I don't have to focus on Dex to stay alive then I can make an intelligent/charismatic fighter who wears heavy armor and can be effective even though his Dex score is an 8 or less.

I'm pretty sure a Dex penalty still applies in heavy armor (even if they forgot to spell it out in the rules). Would be kinda stupid for a Dex 6 fighter to suddenly become more agile/nimble/dextrous because he donned his suit of platemail.

 

[Chronikoce]

[MENTION=7]Grazzt[/MENTION] I don't think so and here is why I believe that it doesn't apply. Armor AC now applies to mundane and magical attacks so the armor is protecting you. Someone in heavy armor is not going to try and dodge the attack at all, they are just going to stand there and take it and pray that their Armor stops it. That being said, 6 dex means your going to be god awful at dex saving throws so any spell that doesn't target AC (fireball) is going to cook you in that armor you rely on.

Personally I think this is a step in the right direction. Someone in full-plate isn't going to even think about dodging. They simply should not have the maneuverability. They may try to parry or block but any block that gets through they are counting on their massively protective armor and not any ability to dodge. However by doing so they are constricting their ability to take any action that requires dex. They can't attack well at range, they can't save vs anything that targets an area unless they roll really well and unless their a dwarf they also move slower. Also, their initiative is going to take a hit as well as Dex skill checks.

I think that Dex is such an high powered stat that having Heavy Armor not take a hit to AC from dex would be a marginal power boost. Your sacrificing all of the other (and very numerous) benefits that Dex offers for a boost to AC. Seems like a fair trade

 

[Obryn]

I agree; your AC in heavy armor doesn't look to be modified by your Dex, positive or negative. IMO, this is great - it eases up on the Dex burden for strong fighters.

I have to say that the whole "your AC scales with money" bit is the part of the system I'm most skeptical about. It implies a wealth-by-level chart I'd rather not deal with. Why not build it into the classes instead as an AC bonus in X sorts of armors? (Rogues get +x AC in Light, Clerics in Medium/Heavy, and Fighters in everything?)

-O

 

[Chronikoce]

I like that idea Obryn. I wouldn't mind seeing a system where you have Light, Medium and Heavy Armor and each provides a starting AC which your class modifies by level. That way instead of having tons of different armor types with different costs you leave the description of the armor type in the hands of the player. That being said, it would be a pretty big step away from what we have seen both in the past and so far so I would be pretty surprised if it showed up.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I agree; your AC in heavy armor doesn't look to be modified by your Dex, positive or negative. IMO, this is great - it eases up on the Dex burden for strong fighters.

I have to say that the whole "your AC scales with money" bit is the part of the system I'm most skeptical about. It implies a wealth-by-level chart I'd rather not deal with. Why not build it into the classes instead as an AC bonus in X sorts of armors? (Rogues get +x AC in Light, Clerics in Medium/Heavy, and Fighters in everything?)

Your AC scaling suggestion is definitely more elegant.

I can't see negative modifiers NOT applying -- how do you get *more* dextrous by putting on armor?

Were are you getting Light and Medium Armor outclassing Heavy?

Save for Ring Mail, all the Heavy Armors are the top armor (AC wise) for their tier at the cost of -5 speed and disadvantage while sneaking.

Assuming one maxes the Dex for their tier:

AC17 = Mithral chain = Dragon Scale > Banded and Splint mail (because both of these have a penalty). Equal AC without penalty is better than with penalty. The cost factor won't balance after the couple of lowest levels, so I discount it. Is the 1 AC of Plate worth the -5 speed and disadvantage?

I'd give heavy one more point of AC (preferably by allowing +1 Dex, or otherwise just adding one), or else remove the disadvantage. The heavy armor already has the challenge of needing an additional proficiency to use for everyone except fighters (and probably paladins).

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

Assuming one maxes the Dex for their tier:

AC17 = Mithral chain = Dragon Scale > Banded and Splint mail (because both of these have a penalty). Equal AC without penalty is better than with penalty. The cost factor won't balance after the couple of lowest levels, so I discount it. Is the 1 AC of Plate worth the -5 speed and disadvantage?

Assuming that the Fighter (or Cleric with the war Domain) has a Dex of 14+, the question is whether mobility and stealth are more important than general defense.

I also don't think that the 4,500 gp cost difference is going to be as insignificant as you think it will be.

I'd give heavy one more point of AC (preferably by allowing +1 Dex, or otherwise just adding one), or else remove the disadvantage. The heavy armor already has the challenge of needing an additional proficiency to use for everyone except fighters (and probably paladins).

I think you are underestimating the benefits of Heavy armors having fixed ACs, even if it is only 1 greater than those of Light and Medium armors with maximized Dex.

When facing the playtest monsters around level 5 using the 500gp "Tier 2" armors, Scale mail vs Banded/Splint, the Heavy armors effectively give a character with a Dex of 14+ 12.5% more hp, a Dex of 12 or 13 ~22.2% more hp, and a Dex of 10 or 11 30% more hp.

 

[Chronikoce]

I can't see negative modifiers NOT applying -- how do you get *more* dextrous by putting on armor?

I already gave my thoughts regarding this statement and why I think it is false. I'll quote myself for you.

I don't think so and here is why I believe that it doesn't apply. Armor AC now applies to mundane and magical attacks so the armor is protecting you. Someone in heavy armor is not going to try and dodge the attack at all, they are just going to stand there and take it and pray that their Armor stops it. That being said, 6 dex means your going to be god awful at dex saving throws so any spell that doesn't target AC (fireball) is going to cook you in that armor you rely on.

Personally I think this is a step in the right direction. Someone in full-plate isn't going to even think about dodging. They simply should not have the maneuverability. They may try to parry or block but any block that gets through they are counting on their massively protective armor and not any ability to dodge. However by doing so they are constricting their ability to take any action that requires dex. They can't attack well at range, they can't save vs anything that targets an area unless they roll really well and unless their a dwarf they also move slower. Also, their initiative is going to take a hit as well as Dex skill checks.

I think that Dex is such an high powered stat that having Heavy Armor not take a hit to AC from dex would be a marginal power boost. Your sacrificing all of the other (and very numerous) benefits that Dex offers for a boost to AC. Seems like a fair trade

Next statement.

I'd give heavy one more point of AC (preferably by allowing +1 Dex, or otherwise just adding one), or else remove the disadvantage. The heavy armor already has the challenge of needing an additional proficiency to use for everyone except fighters (and probably paladins).

Given my response above I would be fine if they increase Heavy armor AC by 1. I would not be ok if they added +DEX (max 1) since this means Dex mod would apply and once again. Personally I think stepping away from Dex mod on Heavy armor is intended and a really good idea.

 

[Stalker0]

Your AC scaling suggestion is definitely more elegant.

I can't see negative modifiers NOT applying -- how do you get *more* dextrous by putting on armor?

Its not that your more dextrous, its simply that the dexterity doesn't matter.

You don't rely on movement to avoid blows, the armor takes care of all that.