The Caves of Chaos Playtest Report
Saturday night I put together a group for a playtest. It was a mix of people I’ve played D&D with (and Shadowrun) for many, many, years, along with a new member (friend of one of my players) and his son.
We started about 6pm, and spent about 1.5 hours on rules, characters, and pizza. Then, wanting to give some background, I pulled out the original module and read the background and, since we were starting at the caves, assuming they had been to the Keep already, I had them roll a Wisdom check to see if they had heard any rumors. They heard several rumors (true and false), and began their adventure...using the hook of the captured princess.
They chose to arrive during the daytime, and looking around the caves, chose the nearest cave on the south (cave D). The rogue snuck up to the entrance, and didn’t sense anything inside (too bad he has no low-light vision, nor the ability to actually scout...).
After entering up the the crossways, they heard sounds coming from the southwest, so they quickly jumped on both sides of the the north-south passage to gain surprise, but they were spotted, and combat began...and many goblins were slaughtered, yet one ran away to the southeast, and one ran west. The party went West, and fought off goblins there, while the ogre showed up from the cave entrance and attacked the rear.
[DM notes: Love the ease of running combat. Hate flipping between the adventure and the monster book. Love that Mearls has addressed this already and that monster stats will include all fight relevant stuff in the future. ]
Ray of frost held the Ogre, as others ran up to fight..and a well place crit helped save the party from the ogre’s wrath!
After cleaning up the remaining goblins, the party needed a quick rest. They discovered the secret door to the Ogre’s cave, looted it, and finished resting there. While resting, one member peeked outside and could hear hobgoblins far up the ravine coming down...while listening at the secret door, they heard more goblins in the guard room.
Figuring they could surprise, or overwhelm the goblins, they opened the door...to twenty readied actions! Lots of arrows flew in, and much damage was taken. The goblins had tipped tables over to cover the front ranks, and were prepared for the party, which they knew were there. [DM notes: I missed the Dirty Tricks power of the goblins...that would have been devastating!].
The wizard cast Burning hands into the room, providing lots of death and damage, and set the dry, wooden tables on fire. The fighter ran and grabbed the cask of alcohol (I had ruled it was around the size of a beer keg), did a strength check to hoist it quickly, and ran back. The next turn he threw it into the flaming tables, creating more fire, which killed some goblins! [DM notes: I like being able to quickly rule on improvisational things in the game like this!].
At the end of the battle, a goblin ran off to the west, while the party could hear the hobgoblins coming from the east. So, with most spells gone, much damage taken, they turned tail and went back to the Keep for healing and rest. The cleric also spent all the loot they had gotten to make 5 healing potions.
Adventuring Day #1: about 36 minutes of adventuring. (About 1.5 hours real-time).
This actually felt right. A 1st level group, enters a cave, and blindly starts battles, eventually gets defeated and has to run away when the occupants use tactics and reinforcements. We also quickly discovered that although we were doing theatre of the mind, it really, really helped to have minis to show relative places the party were to each other compared to the map that one player was drawing. Helped big time! I’m really happy now not to use grid-combat (been doing that for 10+ years and love it in 4e), but mapping and minis to show relative locations really helped. (The mapping wasn’t to mini-scale, but it was easy to place them near where they were).
Adventuring Day #2
They headed back to the Caves, arriving around noon-time (joking that they could do this over their lunch-break, then head back to their jobs at the Keep), and this time the looked around a bit more. They noticed hobgoblins combing the South areas where they had been. Yes, they stirred up that hornet’s nest. On the North, they saw 2 kobolds leaving cave A to go to the grove of trees nearby, so they decided to try the side that wasn't stirred up. The wizard looked and his Wisdom roll showed him that there seemed to be more then 2 kobolds in the trees. He chose to cast a sleep spell into the trees [DM note: turned out to be a good idea! Nice to see the party starting to think outside of the encounter mindset] and they went in. The cleric spotted the trap at the T-intersection, and chose to jump it to the east, where 6 kobolds jumped out and attacked. Several players came to that side of the pit, while a couple went to the West, to attack at range, and were pounced on by rats! [DM note: rolling for 18 rats didn’t feel as fun as a swarm or two would have -- whereas rolling for lots of kobolds is...just...cool!]. The kobolds dealt some good damage, and after several were killed, ran off to the east, and kept sniping around the corner (walk out, throw spear, run away). [DM note: while in bad hands, this kind of tactic may be lame, for kobolds, it felt right and was fun and a little scary. They were taunting the PC’s to run after them]. The party finished off the rats, even as the fighter went down and had to be healed. (Lots of damage was taken fighting kobolds and rats). The party went to the southeast, noticed a trip-wire, walked over it, and went down the hallway and listened. They heard many kobolds off to the east whispering to be quite and shush. The wizard took the invisibility potion, pulled off a dex check, snuck through to the back of the room, and cast sleep...catching nearly all forty kobolds, of which half saved.
[DM note: When doing savings throws for 40...I rolled in groups of 5. Saved time, and still felt right].
Then, a big fight ensued, with the final result being all but one character was dropped and one kobold remained. That kobold ran up the north passage after the fighter was healed with a potion. The remaining two party members (all healing potions now having been used up), carried and dragged the remaining party members back to the keep for healing...
Adventuring Day #2: about 15 minutes. Yep, the 15 minute adventuring day has returned...and I loved it! It felt right, based on the way the players ran their characters. It was nice to see them finally starting to move more towards adventure-based tactics versus encounter based tactics, but it will take more of an evolution down that path to get them past the “Move in--attack--get beat up--run home” method that a 4e style encounter mind-set would cause...as these are not balanced encounters.
The group seemed to like it and we plan on picking up again in 2-3 weeks when we can get together again!
Other DM notes:
While the fighter is a bit unbalanced, the kid playing him rolled the best of the night and did quite well!
4E style stats-in-the-encounter-write-up will be a must for me! (And it looks like they will be doing that)
I loooove the feel of the old-school wizard and cleric that also have some modern tools (cantrips, etc.). The players loved this.
A thief that can’t be a good scout seems lame. That seems to be the only problem with Wisdom being the primary stat for perception.
LOOOVE advantage/disadvantage. We didn’t use it enough, but that is probably because it is a new tool for us and we aren’t used to it yet.
I love the idea of inconsequential actions. Just do it!
I love split movement
I felt that not using tactical maps really kept the flow of the game going, without transitioning between the game and a tactical game. It felt good. (Keep in mind, too, that I Love 4e, and think it has the best tactical rules!).
I may have some edits/adds to my write-up after my players chime-in, as my memory isn’t perfect and I didn’t take many notes.
Notes from one of my players (verbatim):
Good--Really liked!
I like that your movement action can be broken into parts with your normal action in the middle
The advantage/disadvantage system is cool (I would be nice for there to be more ways to gain advantage)
The contest system to roll opposed to a foe...like it!
The at will powers for the casters who can still do things after their allotted spell limit... this still allows them to be effective
The healing kit and hit die idea make a lot of sense...like it
The ability the cleric had to make potions is very helpful!
Movement from prone takes only an extra 5'
The extra 5' rule for area conditions like climb, difficult terrain, etc...much easier!
I liked that some spells had longer durations that can span encounters on an adventure.
I think the theater of this mind idea helps it to feel more like an adventure rather than just a tactical encounter. It also helps speed up combat and keeps the party more engaged in what is going on. That being said I think some representation is helpful in keeping track of the action.
I also liked the race/theme/background aspects. I think these could help to reduce the number of classes and give you the ability to build your character in a variety of ways. For example the Moradin cleric is very much a paladin without the name. I like this idea or way to bring variety into the game while still making it easy to use.
Observations
The fact that movement can be split has the potential to be misused by both party and DM... Especially with no attack of opportunity for moving away from foe.
The rogue seemed a bit nerfed... the fact that he can only attack every other round if he wants to use sneak attack. Maybe consider more ways to gain advantage or hide so sneak attack can be more effective.
Fighter seemed weaker too... but he did a better job at rolling than I did
He just didn't seem very tank-like. The Moradin cleric felt more that way.
change the term "hustle" DO THE HUSTLE!
Rolling for heals... using hard earned heals and you roll a low number...uuugh! maybe flat heal value for potions or consider 2d4 to bring average up???
Leveling progression seemed slow. Probably due to 4E being so fast...probably just me...
With no board combat is a bit more difficult to track... I do not think this outweighs the benefits I stated above though.
One other thing we talked about was the experience for kills vs gold, etc... It would be nice to work into the exp. framework a way to gain exp for other types of activities other than killing... (not like we did much other than slog in and kill stuff but...you know what I mean.)
Saturday night I put together a group for a playtest. It was a mix of people I’ve played D&D with (and Shadowrun) for many, many, years, along with a new member (friend of one of my players) and his son.
We started about 6pm, and spent about 1.5 hours on rules, characters, and pizza. Then, wanting to give some background, I pulled out the original module and read the background and, since we were starting at the caves, assuming they had been to the Keep already, I had them roll a Wisdom check to see if they had heard any rumors. They heard several rumors (true and false), and began their adventure...using the hook of the captured princess.
They chose to arrive during the daytime, and looking around the caves, chose the nearest cave on the south (cave D). The rogue snuck up to the entrance, and didn’t sense anything inside (too bad he has no low-light vision, nor the ability to actually scout...).
After entering up the the crossways, they heard sounds coming from the southwest, so they quickly jumped on both sides of the the north-south passage to gain surprise, but they were spotted, and combat began...and many goblins were slaughtered, yet one ran away to the southeast, and one ran west. The party went West, and fought off goblins there, while the ogre showed up from the cave entrance and attacked the rear.
[DM notes: Love the ease of running combat. Hate flipping between the adventure and the monster book. Love that Mearls has addressed this already and that monster stats will include all fight relevant stuff in the future. ]
Ray of frost held the Ogre, as others ran up to fight..and a well place crit helped save the party from the ogre’s wrath!
After cleaning up the remaining goblins, the party needed a quick rest. They discovered the secret door to the Ogre’s cave, looted it, and finished resting there. While resting, one member peeked outside and could hear hobgoblins far up the ravine coming down...while listening at the secret door, they heard more goblins in the guard room.
Figuring they could surprise, or overwhelm the goblins, they opened the door...to twenty readied actions! Lots of arrows flew in, and much damage was taken. The goblins had tipped tables over to cover the front ranks, and were prepared for the party, which they knew were there. [DM notes: I missed the Dirty Tricks power of the goblins...that would have been devastating!].
The wizard cast Burning hands into the room, providing lots of death and damage, and set the dry, wooden tables on fire. The fighter ran and grabbed the cask of alcohol (I had ruled it was around the size of a beer keg), did a strength check to hoist it quickly, and ran back. The next turn he threw it into the flaming tables, creating more fire, which killed some goblins! [DM notes: I like being able to quickly rule on improvisational things in the game like this!].
At the end of the battle, a goblin ran off to the west, while the party could hear the hobgoblins coming from the east. So, with most spells gone, much damage taken, they turned tail and went back to the Keep for healing and rest. The cleric also spent all the loot they had gotten to make 5 healing potions.
Adventuring Day #1: about 36 minutes of adventuring. (About 1.5 hours real-time).
This actually felt right. A 1st level group, enters a cave, and blindly starts battles, eventually gets defeated and has to run away when the occupants use tactics and reinforcements. We also quickly discovered that although we were doing theatre of the mind, it really, really helped to have minis to show relative places the party were to each other compared to the map that one player was drawing. Helped big time! I’m really happy now not to use grid-combat (been doing that for 10+ years and love it in 4e), but mapping and minis to show relative locations really helped. (The mapping wasn’t to mini-scale, but it was easy to place them near where they were).
Adventuring Day #2
They headed back to the Caves, arriving around noon-time (joking that they could do this over their lunch-break, then head back to their jobs at the Keep), and this time the looked around a bit more. They noticed hobgoblins combing the South areas where they had been. Yes, they stirred up that hornet’s nest. On the North, they saw 2 kobolds leaving cave A to go to the grove of trees nearby, so they decided to try the side that wasn't stirred up. The wizard looked and his Wisdom roll showed him that there seemed to be more then 2 kobolds in the trees. He chose to cast a sleep spell into the trees [DM note: turned out to be a good idea! Nice to see the party starting to think outside of the encounter mindset] and they went in. The cleric spotted the trap at the T-intersection, and chose to jump it to the east, where 6 kobolds jumped out and attacked. Several players came to that side of the pit, while a couple went to the West, to attack at range, and were pounced on by rats! [DM note: rolling for 18 rats didn’t feel as fun as a swarm or two would have -- whereas rolling for lots of kobolds is...just...cool!]. The kobolds dealt some good damage, and after several were killed, ran off to the east, and kept sniping around the corner (walk out, throw spear, run away). [DM note: while in bad hands, this kind of tactic may be lame, for kobolds, it felt right and was fun and a little scary. They were taunting the PC’s to run after them]. The party finished off the rats, even as the fighter went down and had to be healed. (Lots of damage was taken fighting kobolds and rats). The party went to the southeast, noticed a trip-wire, walked over it, and went down the hallway and listened. They heard many kobolds off to the east whispering to be quite and shush. The wizard took the invisibility potion, pulled off a dex check, snuck through to the back of the room, and cast sleep...catching nearly all forty kobolds, of which half saved.
[DM note: When doing savings throws for 40...I rolled in groups of 5. Saved time, and still felt right].
Then, a big fight ensued, with the final result being all but one character was dropped and one kobold remained. That kobold ran up the north passage after the fighter was healed with a potion. The remaining two party members (all healing potions now having been used up), carried and dragged the remaining party members back to the keep for healing...
Adventuring Day #2: about 15 minutes. Yep, the 15 minute adventuring day has returned...and I loved it! It felt right, based on the way the players ran their characters. It was nice to see them finally starting to move more towards adventure-based tactics versus encounter based tactics, but it will take more of an evolution down that path to get them past the “Move in--attack--get beat up--run home” method that a 4e style encounter mind-set would cause...as these are not balanced encounters.
The group seemed to like it and we plan on picking up again in 2-3 weeks when we can get together again!
Other DM notes:
While the fighter is a bit unbalanced, the kid playing him rolled the best of the night and did quite well!
4E style stats-in-the-encounter-write-up will be a must for me! (And it looks like they will be doing that)
I loooove the feel of the old-school wizard and cleric that also have some modern tools (cantrips, etc.). The players loved this.
A thief that can’t be a good scout seems lame. That seems to be the only problem with Wisdom being the primary stat for perception.
LOOOVE advantage/disadvantage. We didn’t use it enough, but that is probably because it is a new tool for us and we aren’t used to it yet.
I love the idea of inconsequential actions. Just do it!
I love split movement
I felt that not using tactical maps really kept the flow of the game going, without transitioning between the game and a tactical game. It felt good. (Keep in mind, too, that I Love 4e, and think it has the best tactical rules!).
I may have some edits/adds to my write-up after my players chime-in, as my memory isn’t perfect and I didn’t take many notes.
Notes from one of my players (verbatim):
Good--Really liked!
I like that your movement action can be broken into parts with your normal action in the middle
The advantage/disadvantage system is cool (I would be nice for there to be more ways to gain advantage)
The contest system to roll opposed to a foe...like it!
The at will powers for the casters who can still do things after their allotted spell limit... this still allows them to be effective
The healing kit and hit die idea make a lot of sense...like it
The ability the cleric had to make potions is very helpful!
Movement from prone takes only an extra 5'
The extra 5' rule for area conditions like climb, difficult terrain, etc...much easier!
I liked that some spells had longer durations that can span encounters on an adventure.
I think the theater of this mind idea helps it to feel more like an adventure rather than just a tactical encounter. It also helps speed up combat and keeps the party more engaged in what is going on. That being said I think some representation is helpful in keeping track of the action.
I also liked the race/theme/background aspects. I think these could help to reduce the number of classes and give you the ability to build your character in a variety of ways. For example the Moradin cleric is very much a paladin without the name. I like this idea or way to bring variety into the game while still making it easy to use.
Observations
The fact that movement can be split has the potential to be misused by both party and DM... Especially with no attack of opportunity for moving away from foe.
The rogue seemed a bit nerfed... the fact that he can only attack every other round if he wants to use sneak attack. Maybe consider more ways to gain advantage or hide so sneak attack can be more effective.
Fighter seemed weaker too... but he did a better job at rolling than I did
He just didn't seem very tank-like. The Moradin cleric felt more that way.change the term "hustle" DO THE HUSTLE!
Rolling for heals... using hard earned heals and you roll a low number...uuugh! maybe flat heal value for potions or consider 2d4 to bring average up???
Leveling progression seemed slow. Probably due to 4E being so fast...probably just me...
With no board combat is a bit more difficult to track... I do not think this outweighs the benefits I stated above though.
One other thing we talked about was the experience for kills vs gold, etc... It would be nice to work into the exp. framework a way to gain exp for other types of activities other than killing... (not like we did much other than slog in and kill stuff but...you know what I mean.)
