D&D (2024) Please focus on concept, not numbers.

[UngeheuerLich]

Snip.

This discussion has reached its dead end.

I prefer not to continue. I understand your point and I disagree with your assesment so fundamentally that further discussion is moot.

 

[tetrasodium]

But this is a criticism of the concept. It's a concept of numbers.

Conjure Barrage is too weak. And you can't buff it that because it is designed to match with 3rd level spells and Bard and Druids can get it as full casters.

You'd have to rewrite the spell, buff it, and remove it from the Primal list. All numbers criticism

Conjure barrage is not an evocation spell & should not be compared to them, The 2014 version compares comparably to other 3rd level conjuration damage spells in the 2014 phb. How do you know what third level spells will be though? We have the text of two spells. Both of those spells are extremely different from the 2014phb & neither is conjure barrage.

Personally I'd very much like to see all evocation spells take a big hit and have the base classes/class archetypes carry with them glass cannon enabling abilities on top of returning SR to the game. Conjure barrage is a conjuration spell. It was a big mistake for 5e to remove the ability to take an opportunity cost with specializing for one type of spell loadout while nerfing & buffing various spells to apply pressure towards one type of spell loadout that carries enough of each niche to do them all with competence.

The ranger specifically has a multiplicative extra attack that carries any weapon buff or class/archetype riders along with both attacks.

Because if it is one the list the Bard and Druid get it at earlier levels and more slots to churn throug it. If you buff it, you give them a stronger spell that they can do more with.

This links to my earlier point about how caster classes should carry more of the oomph for evocation or whatever niche they specialize for than the spells themselves. Conjuration itself is a weird mix of abjuration/enchantment & evocation with things like web/grease/fog cloud/heroes feast/etc & generally weaker damage spells that A bypassed SR & B often stuck around for multiple rounds. Why would a druid wanting to upcast conjure barrage be a problem? Alternately why would it be a problem if a druid has a caster heavy archetype that gives them bonuses to a spell like conjure barrage instead of things like extra attack a fighting style tireless & so on?

 

[Campbell]

Getting the numbers right is absolutely important and I think should be a really important part of systems feedback. What I personally would advise against is evaluating these changes in isolation rather than holistically. They should be understood in the context of other changes rather than the context of adding them to your 5e game tonight.

 

[Mistwell]

It is however part of what looks like an attempted "no criticism is valid" when we have the following two concepts floating around.

• Don't criticise the fluff. It's easy to add spice and you start with the basics.
• Don't criticise the mechanics. It's easy to add numbers.

In other words what should the criticism be for?

And I'm going to start. The most fundamental thing a class needs is a vision.

I agree. I stopped you there because the rest of your post is about Rangers (which may be entirely correct) but I figured I'd branch your post off to discuss the Lore Bard as well. Since I think it applies precisely to that class as well.

I don't criticize the fluff of the Lore Bard - it's on point. You are have a diverse store of lore gathered from scholarly tomes and libraries.

I do criticize the mechanics. Not that the numbers are wrong, just that the mechanics don't match the fluff. Which means the subclass doesn't support the vision it claims to support.

It does get these elements which support the Lore theme: Bonus Proficiencies (3rd level - but many other things get this), and Peerless Skill (14th level - too late for most bard players to care).

Meanwhile, their "core" abilities which they get early do not support the Lore concept: Cutting Words (I never understood what this has to do with Lore - you distract others?), Cunning Inspiration (advantage on bardic inspiration has nothing to do with Lore), Improved Cutting Words (damage on cutting words has nothing to do with Lore).

The subclass appears to be having a sharp wit. So sharp you can eventually do damage with it. WTF does that have to do with knowing scholarly tomes and hanging out in libraries?