Please rate Rapid Reload

[Elder-Basilisk]

Rapid reload has its uses--just not for PCs.

For PCs, even a low strength rogue who uses ranged sneak attacks to deal damage wouldn't find this a useful feat. By the time the rogue is eligable for it the rogue could have point blank shot and rapid shot instead. Since most of the rogue's damage will come from sneak attack, even in a worst case scenario, he is better off with a short bow

Rapid reload: 3 attacks every 2 rounds. 1d8+2d6 sneak attack: average damage per round (assuming all hit)= 17.25

Rapid shot: 4 attacks every 2 rounds. 1d6-4 (Strength of 3)+1 (point blank shot)+2d6 (sneak attack):
average damage per round (assuming all hit)=18+

If the rogue has a strength higher than 3 or is level 5+, the difference will become even more dramatic. Give the rogue enough levels to have iterative attacks and rapid reload is an even worse deal.

Of course, the PC could do even better (assuming that he probably will get the archery feats anyway) by spending the feat on repeating crossbow proficiency. That way, he'll get better damage dice, negate the strength penalty and still get multiple attacks.

The feat isn't completely useless though. It has good utility as an NPC feat. A squad of crack crossbowmen (human War 3 or Ftr 2)could be a viable military force and use rapid reload to fire their heavy crossbows every round. Although they would not be effective as effective as longbow archers in a battlefield confrontation, they would get more milage out of every shot and hence would probably be more effective siege troops. More importantly, even if they weren't as effective as longbow troops, they would still be effective enough to be useful.

For that matter, it would be a good feat to give to members of a town militia. A human exp 3 could take the rapid reload feat and fire their heavy crossbow every round. That would be superior to an expert who was simply proficient in the longbow as the crossbow has superior range, deals more damage and costs less. Lack of mobility probably isn't an issue for a militia primarily concerned with defending the walls of its town either.

Since NPCs generally don't advance at the same rate as PCs and may not care to devote too much attention to combat, rapid reload is a good feat for the common NPC but an almost completely worthless feat for any PC.

 

[Crothian]

It's a must have for a high level charcater (someone with multiple attacks) and a crossbow. However, since few people use a crossbow, you will fine the usefulness of this feat smaller.

 

[Caliban]

Also, the Quick Loading weapon ability from Magic of Faerun makes the feat obsolete, if you play in FR.

 

[Jeph]

IMHO, Martial Proficiency (composite longbow) is better all-round for anyone who will actually be in combat enough to make use of the feat.

 

[Pax]

Really?

You mean, my STR6 Halfling Level 6 Sorceror will do better with a Longbow (doing 1d8-2, for results of 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 damage) ... than he would with a light crossbow (doing 1d8-0, for results of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 damage) ... ?

Let's see, 1d8-2 averages to ~2.9 damage per hit.

1d8 averages to 4.5 damage per hit.

That's 1.6 more damage on average. As a sorceror, rarely could more than one attack be made per round, anyway -- even at higher levels!

For some characters who WILL be in combat (you know, like most or all adventurers eventually will be), Rapid Reload and a crossbow is a better choice than using a bow of -any- sort.

[EDIT: Typographical errors]

 

[Archer]

I have to agree that either the quick loading weapon makes this feat obsolete but quick loading seems to be excessively expensive. I would have thought +1 would have been plenty to charge and a fixed cost would have been better.

If you are out of spells and have to resort to using a crossbow its time to rest for the day. The damage of a crossbow is insignifcant (less than 5%) compared to the total damage inflicted by the rest of the party.

 

[Pax]

I have to agree that either the quick loading weapon makes this feat obsolete but quick loading seems to be excessively expensive. I would have thought +1 would have been plenty to charge and a fixed cost would have been better.

People ARE remembering that the Quck Loading weapon enhancement also gives a 100-shot extradimensional magazine to drw from, right? That's not a small advantage.

If you are out of spells and have to resort to using a crossbow its time to rest for the day. The damage of a crossbow is insignifcant (less than 5%) compared to the total damage inflicted by the rest of the party.

Who says the spellcaster is -out- of spells? Perhaps his or her spells are best saved for later use (clerics high on DEX but low on STR, who thus tend towards ranged, crossbow attacks when in combat).

Also, you presuppose that the characters can freely rest as often as they want, wherever they happen to be. Sometimes, in fact not infrequently, there are other reasons they -cannot- rest (time limits to get to a certain place and/or do a certain thing; in the middle of hostile territory, surrounded by slavering evil badguys; etc, etc). I say, that presupposition is inherently flawed, even false.

And, especially at lower levels, one person with a crossbow in a party of four is NOT doing "less than 5%" of the per-round average damage the party can deal to a foe. I'd say, given the probably-correct assumption that the crossbow character is not a warrior, and given the "traditional" party of "one rogue, one arcane spellcaster, one cleric, and one warrior-type" .... the fighter and rogue should account, between them, for about two-thirds of all non-spell-based damage the party deals, overall. Of the remaining one-third, the cleric will likely deal out a bit more, as a cleric's BAB is slightly superior to that of a Wizard or Sorceror.

So, just under one-sixth, if the crossbow user is an arcane spellcaster, just OVER one-sixth if the crossbow user is a cleric, or perhaps bard. Just short of one-third, if the crossbow user is a rogue, maneuvering for sneak attack damage as often as possible; we'll grant that for STR10+ fighters, a longbow would be a superior choice.

None of those is even within spitting distance of "less than 5%", which would amount to under one-twentieth or less, of the damage dealt.

My first 3E character was a Sorceror; at low/mid level (say, around 5th), he used his crossbow about 1/5 of the time -- despite having decent combat-applicable spells (sleep, glitterdust, melf's acid arrow, etc). Another 1/5 of the time, he was forced to actually enter melee (which is why he carried a Shortspear), often due to the party being caught in tight confined spaces, with enemies on all open sides.

I only WISH Rapid Reload was available at the time he turned 3d level, I'd've gladly put that on my "want" list ...

 

[Gaiden]

Pax,

You mean, my STR6 Halfling Level 6 Sorceror will do better with a Longbow (doing 1d8-2, for results of 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 damage) ... than he would with a light crossbow (doing 1d8-0, for results of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 damage) ... ?

Its not a matter of the fact that the halfling sorcerer does better damage with a crossbow. Its a matter of the usefulness of the feat. Take your str 6 halfling sorcerer. When will he get to take advanantage of this feat. Certainly (all else being equal) not before level 10 as you won't get that second shot from iterive attacks. At level 10 you have access to more than enough 2nd level spells and assuming your construction of the iconic party your second level cleric buddy can simply cast bull's str on you (if he doesn't get it in a wand, or simply have an item giving you a boost to str). At that point you could simply take martial weapon proficiency bows and be at the very least equivalent. (You would in fact be better as you can increase your str even further and actually get bonus damage to the bow).

However, going back to the usefulness of the feat, as you suggested, most combat oriented characters won't use the crossbow in the first place. Rather they use bows. This is simply because they get access to the bows for free and can reload as a free action normally. So it is only the non combat characters that would use a crossbow in the first place. Why would a non combat character take a combat feat? Since I begged teh question I will answer: only if that combat feat significantly counteracts a weakness (as a fighter might do with iron will, or a spell caster might do with expertise) or if that combat feat in fact augments a preexisting power/ability/spell. This certainly would not be the combat feat of choice to make up for a weakness. My God, its one of the worst feats in the game (yeah that's bias, I know). Seriously though, no combat oriented character would ever take this which should say something. If you are going to take a combat feat to make up for a weakness you need to take only the best of combat feats. Such choices might include improved unarmed strike, expertise, blindfight, weapon focus, weapon finesse, etc. Certainly not this feat though. You are yielding at most 3 additional attacks (if you include rapid shot) each at significant penalties from your BAB (-2, -7, and -12) to your already abominatably low attack bonus. Now, augmenting a preexisting power is a valid reason to take a combat feat. For example, arcane tricksters focusing on ray attacks to deal sneak attack damage and consequently taking point blank shot, and other ranged attack feats is a very valid feat course selection. Taking Power attack to use in combination with true strike (assuming you went spellsword or multiclassed) is another very valid optioin. Such feat selections, again, make a lot of sense. They have high yield relative to other feats for your powers.

Now, your 6th level sorcerer, what combat augmentation feats could he use. First lets ask what spells does he have that would be used in conjunction with feats.

A rough list (IDHMBWM) might be:

shield
mage armor
true strike
scent
jump
melf's acid arrow
flame arrow
produce flame
vampiric touch
ray of frost
finger of flame
haste
tensor's transformation
bull's str
cat's grace
endurance
shocking grasp
chill touch
ray of enfeeblement

I am sure the list goes on.

The most useful actual combat spells I would have to say would be tensor's transformation and haste. Tensor's gives you the str boost to make rapid reload irrelevant in comparison to a bow and perhaps be worse as you can get a max of +8. Haste for a sorcerer would certainly be more useful casting spells.

The rest either have nothing to do with crossbows or would apply equally to any sort of ranged attack.

By a noncombat character taking rapid reload, they try and make up for a weakness of their equipment, which can better be overcome by better equipment and spells. Moreover, it is so much more worthwhile to take a feat that focuses on their powers. If you have a 6th level sorcerer contemplating a feat choice, consider any of the metamagic feats, great fortitude, spell focus, etc. Seriously, worrying about a sorcerer running out of spells challenges my notion of realistic encounters for your level. Once you get to the midlevels you should have enough spells to more than last a daily alotment of encounters. Finally, if you are relying on a crossbow at higher levels to deal damage, you need to make better spell selections.

I stand by my original position - rapid reload absolutely sucks. - no exceptions

 

[Stalker0]

Crossbows are useful in some situations, like when your hiding behind a wall, or your down on the ground, you don't get penalties to shooting a crossbow on the ground, and you your bow using enemies get pealities to shoot you.

But that aside, sometimes feats are not about making you the next badass. Sometimes its about STYLE!! For whatever reason, somepeople want to use a crossbow. Maybe they have a roleplaying reason, maybe they think its cool, maybe they don't want to be a munchkin.

For those people, and the NPCS who might take this, its a great feat. Its a great addition for a crossbow user, and that's all it needs to be.

 

[Pax]

Pax,

Its not a matter of the fact that the halfling sorcerer does better damage with a crossbow. Its a matter of the usefulness of the feat. Take your str 6 halfling sorcerer. When will he get to take advanantage of this feat. Certainly (all else being equal) not before level 10 as you won't get that second shot from iterive attacks.

Note, I have always said the major benefit is being able to fire every round with a light crossbow AND take a normal move.

Also, Rapid Shot woudl tie in well with Rapid Reload. That would give you two iterative attacks (at -2 each).

At level 10 you have access to more than enough 2nd level spells and assuming your construction of the iconic party your second level cleric buddy can simply cast bull's str on you (if he doesn't get it in a wand, or simply have an item giving you a boost to str). At that point you could simply take martial weapon proficiency bows and be at the very least equivalent. (You would in fact be better as you can increase your str even further and actually get bonus damage to the bow).

That same Bull's Strength would be better served ont eh cleric himself, on the fighter, or even on the Rogue. Or used for a different spell entirely -- after-action healing if nothing else.

However, going back to the usefulness of the feat, as you suggested, most combat oriented characters won't use the crossbow in the first place. Rather they use bows. This is simply because they get access to the bows for free and can reload as a free action normally. So it is only the non combat characters that would use a crossbow in the first place. Why would a non combat character take a combat feat?

To enhance their non-spell efficiency. Or, most importantly IMO, purely for the style of it. Not everyonemin/maxes and munchkinises their character to the ultimate maximum.

Since I begged the question I will answer: only if that combat feat significantly counteracts a weakness (as a fighter might do with iron will, or a spell caster might do with expertise) or if that combat feat in fact augments a preexisting power/ability/spell. This certainly would not be the combat feat of choice to make up for a weakness. My God, its one of the worst feats in the game (yeah that's bias, I know).

IMO, you're speaking out of your backside here (no offense).

For a low-strength character trying to act in a ranged-weapon support role, crossbows are superior to normal bows, due to greater range combined with lack of a STR penalty to damage.

For those characters, increasing their maximum ROF -- and/or enabling some mobility while firing -- is indeed offsetting a weakness. As you observed above -- it won't be until after 10th level that the Sorceror or Wizard gets ANY innate iterative attacks. With two iterative attacks, Rapid Reload can let the sorceror or wizard use both attacks while wielding a light crossbow. The most they would lose would be a THIRD innate iterative attack.

...

WHEN do they get that, exactly?

Seriously though, no combat oriented character would ever take this which should say something.

It says to me you're a powergamer at best, a munchkin at worst. If sheer net power gain is your only measure of a feat's usefulness, the problem, frankly, lies with you, not the feat.

If you are going to take a combat feat to make up for a weakness you need to take only the best of combat feats.

How very .... munchkin ... a thing for you to say.

Such choices might include improved unarmed strike,

About the worst idea I've ever seen. Sure, sure, take your noncombat characetr and put them in MELEE using a feat that gives no direct bonus to hit, nor even to damage. Great idea, there, basedon your "only the best" argument.

Not.

expertise,

Nice thought, and the benefits would be quite useful ... except Sorcerors and Wizards, or similar, accrue BAB so slowly, it will be ... 10th level before it's full benefits can be reaped.

blindfight,

Utility spells more easily counter most or all situations in which blindfighting can be of use (Daylight, Glitterdust, targetted Dispel Magic ...).

weapon focus,

Hmm, move and/or fire an extra time ... or a +1 bonus on your one and only shot ... hmm ... this too fails your own power-curve test.

weapon finesse, etc.

Pointless with ranged weapons. They're dexterity based already.

Certainly not this feat though. You are yielding at most 3 additional attacks (if you include rapid shot) each at significant penalties from your BAB (-2, -7, and -12) to your already abominatably low attack bonus.

Or recovering the ability to actually MOVE as your MEA, rather than frantically reload your crossbow and stand there, lettign the enemy advance on your position. For the first 10+ levels, most Wizard or Sorceror characetrs will gain ONE attack, at -2 to the main AND secondary attack, by combining Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload. IMO worth it -- statistically speaking, with such a low BAB, quantity of attack attempts outweighs wuality of each attempt.

Now, augmenting a preexisting power is a valid reason to take a combat feat. For example, arcane tricksters focusing on ray attacks to deal sneak attack damage and consequently taking point blank shot, and other ranged attack feats is a very valid feat course selection. Taking Power attack to use in combination with true strike (assuming you went spellsword or multiclassed) is another very valid optioin. Such feat selections, again, make a lot of sense. They have high yield relative to other feats for your powers.

Feat selection is not solely about making yourself more and more powerful, about getting some "edge over the competition" ... sometimes it's about having chosen a style, and wanting to make yourself as good as possible within that style. The best PrC's do that -- some examples being the Lasher (S&F), the Duellist (S&F), and the Master Alchemist (MoF).

Now, your 6th level sorcerer, what combat augmentation feats could he use. First lets ask what spells does he have that would be used in conjunction with feats.

A rough list (IDHMBWM) might be:

*snip list of spells*

I am sure the list goes on.

Actually, several of your entries are invalid. Tenser's transformation isn't something a 6th level sorceror (with only up to 3d level spells) can cast. Bull's Strength can at best UNDO a Strength-6 halfling's penalty to damage and melee-attacks. Shocking Grasp, Vampiric touch, and Chill Touch all require (for safe usage by a low-hp character) Spectral Hand for proper function; given sorceror's notorious shortage of known spells, they're not usually high on my list of spells to pick up with a sorceror.

Haste only makes the Rapid Reload even better, allowing a full standard-attack cycle in each Partial Action ... on top of any attacks during the normal round's worth of actions.

The most useful actual combat spells I would have to say would be tensor's transformation and haste. Tensor's gives you the str boost to make rapid reload irrelevant in comparison to a bow and perhaps be worse as you can get a max of +8. Haste for a sorcerer would certainly be more useful casting spells.

First off, though my books are not readily to hand ... IIRC, Tenser's Transformation is a SIXTH level spell, and sorcerors won't see it until 12th level, at the earliest. And since it won't be up and running 24/7/52 (or whatever other time-and-calendar system the campaign world employs), I don't count the STR boost as being especially important.

By a noncombat character taking rapid reload, they try and make up for a weakness of their equipment, which can better be overcome by better equipment and spells. Moreover, it is so much more worthwhile to take a feat that focuses on their powers. If you have a 6th level sorcerer contemplating a feat choice, consider any of the metamagic feats, great fortitude, spell focus, etc. Seriously, worrying about a sorcerer running out of spells challenges my notion of realistic encounters for your level. Once you get to the midlevels you should have enough spells to more than last a daily alotment of encounters. Finally, if you are relying on a crossbow at higher levels to deal damage, you need to make better spell selections.

Now, what feats are best for the character depend largely on what the player has chosen as the sorceror's STYLE, now, wouldn't you agree? And sans improving the character's strength, what is better than a crossbow, for ranged nonspell attacks ... for someone with an abysmal strength?

Remember, sheer overwhelming power is not the be-all, end-all, holy-grail-objective for everyone. Soem of us prefer to value fun most of all.

As for relying on the crossbow -- I said it was a backup weapon. There ARE situations in which your combat spells own't be useful -- a situation ESPECIALLY true of sorcerors (my first sorceror, at 4th or 5th level, had one combat-worthy second level spell ... melf's acid arrow; when we fought a black dragon, that spell was especially pointless, wouldn't you agree? Yet it was especially potent in OTHER encounters ...).

I stand by my original position - rapid reload absolutely sucks. - no exceptions

I stand by my new position: you're a powergaming munchkin.