Please rate Subdual Substitution

[Shard O'Glase]

By the rule no it wouldn't work. You apply metamagic feats to the abse spell, so when you did the subdual it would go to the base spells energy descriptor, not the modifed versions energy desriptor.

IMC it would work because this rule is the dumbest rule they came up with. I think they saw a specific problem and then made a general rule to solve it which then caused more specific problems.(though not balance absed rpoblems I supose)

 

[Sejs]

I voted average.


However, this feat is to blame for the idea of the Subdual Prarie Fire. Just sweeping across the land, beating the bejesus out of everything it came across.. knocking plants unconscious, little animals pummeled into submission as the ....er... ravaging flames washed over them.



Damn you, Subdual Substitution! Damn you!

 

[niteshade6]

I believe the damage is non elemental so it does bypass any form of elemental resistance. On the other hand, it's subdual damage which does not work on constructs and undead (and perhaps others I am forgetting). Also if a person is taking real damage and subdual damage, then a heal spell cures them both essentialy doing double the effect. So I'd say it's pretty balanced. You get a spell which effects a whole range of creatures otherwise uneffected, but then that doesn't effect a whole new range of creatures. It's probably best for sorcerors who can metamagic their spells on the fly. Although the single elemental type does hurt them.

 

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Sejs
However, this feat is to blame for the idea of the Subdual Prarie Fire. Just sweeping across the land, beating the bejesus out of everything it came across.. knocking plants unconscious, little animals pummeled into submission as the ....er... ravaging flames washed over them.

That's rich. A subdual prairie fire. What would that even LOOK like? What, exactly, does a subdual fireball even look like, for instance? Is it a fireball, only lacking in the fire part, leaving only a ball?

 

[Destil]

By the rule no it wouldn't work. You apply metamagic feats to the abse spell, so when you did the subdual it would go to the base spells energy descriptor, not the modifed versions energy desriptor.

IMC it would work because this rule is the dumbest rule they came up with. I think they saw a specific problem and then made a general rule to solve it which then caused more specific problems.(though not balance absed rpoblems I supose)

How does an empowered, extended bull's strength work, then? Do you get 1.25*(1d4+1) for the first hour / level and only 1d4+1 for the rest of the duration?

The answer is that empower and maximize are the exceptions: it's explicitly stated that they do not 'stack'. It's not a general meta-magic rule.

 

[maddman75]

I gave it a 1. Don't like it on any count. Sure, you could make a subdual fireball or lightning bolt - but generally arcanists have a lot better options available to them if they want to take prisoners. And flavor wise, it doesn't click for me. As noted above, wtf does a subdual fireball look like?

 

[Sejs]

That's rich. A subdual prairie fire. What would that even LOOK like? What, exactly, does a subdual fireball even look like, for instance? Is it a fireball, only lacking in the fire part, leaving only a ball?

It took some communal brainstorming (for instance, if a fire doesn't do damage, does it consume it's fuel? Therefore, if it doesn't consume it's fuel, does it burn forever?), but they way we all eventually agreed on was it looks like normal fire, but with no smoke and no embers. Once something is subdued fully it's considdered 'consumed' for the purpose of the fire, so the roaring sheet of flames race across the landscape leaving a swath of limp plants in it's wake. Grass slumped to the ground, not standing up, trees limbs all drooping, twigs saggings, etc. Animals battered and buised but nothing broken or bleeding.

It basically looks like an illusion of a prairie fire. Looks sorta like fire (no smoke, no embers, no charred landscape), feels sorta like fire (hot, but not hot enough to do any fire damage), sounds sorta like fire (roars, but there's no crackle of stuff being consumed), and smells sorta like fire (hot air smell, but no char and no smoke smells). It all just adds up to looking wrong somehow, but it wouldn't be readily apparent to most folks.

 

[Li Shenron]

What, exactly, does a subdual fireball even look like, for instance? Is it a fireball, only lacking in the fire part, leaving only a ball?

That's why I said I don't like the idea of subdual elemental damage, even if maybe you don't count it "elemental" anymore. A subdual Magic Missile would make more sense to me than a subdual Fireball: the MM is after all some force effect, like a shock, you can easily imagine a "soft" version which works similarly to unarmed damage or damage from a whip, but I cannot easily imagine subdual-burned or -frosted or -corroded wounds (maybe I could better with sonic or electricity). Remember that subdual damage heals quickly and can't kill, and I think there was a line somewhere that stated that elemental damage can never be turned into subdual {obviously it just meant that you can't take -4 when attacking with a torch to deliver subdual fire damage as you could instead take -4 with a staff to deliver s.d. instead of normal bludgeoning damage}.

I think that overall to have a feat which converts damage from spells into subdual is a good idea, I just really dislike that it applies exactly to elemental damage, I think it would have made more sense if it applied to anything ELSE.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Concussion Wave!

I don't have a problem with Subdual Substitution on a stylistic level. Spell descriptions have always been fluid in my mind, becoming whatever the caster would prefer. There's an example in Tome and Blood (I believe it's T&B) of one wizard's Magic Missile spell looking like a swarm of wasps. My own fighter/wizzie's Lightning Bolt consisted of him slamming his sword into the ground and creating an electric explosion in a straight line towards his enemies.

So a Subdual Substituted Fireball might look like a ball of force that explodes with concussive force at the designated spot.

My problem with the feat is what others have already mentioned: wizzies already have other options, such as Hold Person, Forcecage, even Web to an extent, when they want to take prisoners. So Subdual Substitution isn't very useful very often.

But for the more merciful mage, I suppose it would be a good feat to take. And I would absolutely allow it to work in conjunction with Energy Substitution. Small gain for two feats, IMO.

[edit] misplaced apostrophe

 

[Shard O'Glase]

How does an empowered, extended bull's strength work, then? Do you get 1.25*(1d4+1) for the first hour / level and only 1d4+1 for the rest of the duration?

The answer is that empower and maximize are the exceptions: it's explicitly stated that they do not 'stack'. It's not a general meta-magic rule.

Yep you only get the empowered str during the normal duraiton the exended duration its not empowered. Same dillio with empower cones with the feat that doubles range. The cone does x1.5 damage out to ordinay range, normal damage out to the double range. Hence me calling it a dumb ruling.

It came up not just during empower and maximize but also extend and persistent. Some one asked what happens when I extend a persistent spell. The answer you always apply metamagics to the base spell so it wont be a two day spell.