The Little Raven
First Post
Celebrim said:
Welcome to the dilemma many of us had with previous editions. Things feel a bit different when you're on the outside, no?
Please test Grapple
- Thread starter Baumi
- Start date
Welcome to the dilemma many of us had with previous editions. Things feel a bit different when you're on the outside, no?
TwinBahamut
First Post
I think that if you want interesting grappling, then you should just wait for someone to write up a bunch of powers for grappling (or write some yourself), rather than try to shoehorn the 3E mechanic into a very different 4E.
4E seems to be based on having a very limited set of things that anyone can do, with each thing being the seed of a whole set of powers. I imagine the "grab" mechanic will be the same. Sure, grabbing an enemy is simple and useless for a normal character, but for a character built to do it, it will allow him to use his "Crushing Bear Hug" power at will as a minor action, before using "Death Suplex" as a finishing move once per day. I think grappling mechanics like that would be much more easy to use and interesting than the complex and ultimately dull 3E system.
4E seems to be based on having a very limited set of things that anyone can do, with each thing being the seed of a whole set of powers. I imagine the "grab" mechanic will be the same. Sure, grabbing an enemy is simple and useless for a normal character, but for a character built to do it, it will allow him to use his "Crushing Bear Hug" power at will as a minor action, before using "Death Suplex" as a finishing move once per day. I think grappling mechanics like that would be much more easy to use and interesting than the complex and ultimately dull 3E system.
The Little Raven
First Post
Didn't we see something about limitations on "sliding" enemies around, in that you can only do it to enemies one size category larger than you, your size, and smaller? It might also apply to grappling.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
And you don't see a problem with this?
"The fighter is trapped in a force bubble, the cleric is down, the other cleric was pushed off a ledge four rounds ago and won't be able to climb up for two more rounds. The bad guy is beating me in combat. My one chance is to push him off the ledge."
DM: I'm sorry, your character doesn't have a power that lets him move opponents.
"OK, let me see. The bad guy is using melee attack spells. I'll try to grab him, put him in a headlock, and keep him from speaking."
DM: You can grab him if you want, but that just immobilizes him. He can still do whatever he wants while he's immobilized. You didn't select Improved Grab, Sleeper Hold, or Larynx Crush in any of your last eight levels, so you can't do any of those things. Hey, you chose not to take the abilities; don't whine now that you see how they'd be useful.
"Fine. I'll use a move action to grab the tapestry and throw it on top of him then hold it over his head."
DM: You don't have the Cafellan cloak fighting power so you can't do that. Quit your whining and just use one of the 50 bazillion powers you have that do 1d6 or 2d6 plus ability modifier in damage.
There are a lot of abilities that should not be power based. Everyone should be able to do them. For my part, I want grappling rules not grab rules and a few special ability based powers that are only usable by the characters who specialize in them. If the game does not have rules that enable the hero to wrestle the mind-controlled knight to the ground and pin him rather than killing him, its rules are not sufficient to the task of running the games I want to run.
"The fighter is trapped in a force bubble, the cleric is down, the other cleric was pushed off a ledge four rounds ago and won't be able to climb up for two more rounds. The bad guy is beating me in combat. My one chance is to push him off the ledge."
DM: I'm sorry, your character doesn't have a power that lets him move opponents.
"OK, let me see. The bad guy is using melee attack spells. I'll try to grab him, put him in a headlock, and keep him from speaking."
DM: You can grab him if you want, but that just immobilizes him. He can still do whatever he wants while he's immobilized. You didn't select Improved Grab, Sleeper Hold, or Larynx Crush in any of your last eight levels, so you can't do any of those things. Hey, you chose not to take the abilities; don't whine now that you see how they'd be useful.
"Fine. I'll use a move action to grab the tapestry and throw it on top of him then hold it over his head."
DM: You don't have the Cafellan cloak fighting power so you can't do that. Quit your whining and just use one of the 50 bazillion powers you have that do 1d6 or 2d6 plus ability modifier in damage.
There are a lot of abilities that should not be power based. Everyone should be able to do them. For my part, I want grappling rules not grab rules and a few special ability based powers that are only usable by the characters who specialize in them. If the game does not have rules that enable the hero to wrestle the mind-controlled knight to the ground and pin him rather than killing him, its rules are not sufficient to the task of running the games I want to run.
TwinBahamut said:
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
The fighter's character sheet from D&D XP had a power that can only be used while wielding a shield. That power enabled you to move enemies up to one size larger than you.
Lizard said:
Amphimir Míriel
Explorer
Elder-Basilisk said:
Sorry, but I fail to see how grappling effectively should be an ability each and every character should have... especially trying to grapple an 9ft tall minotaur.
Now, grabbing a spellcaster's arm so that he cannot point his finger at you might work more easily, but tackling him without any training? don't think so
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The Little Raven
First Post
Elder-Basilisk said:
No.
Any high school bully can grab a nerd by his shirt, but that doesn't make him Royce Gracie. Beyond basic grabs, you should have powers, just like you do beyond basic attacks.
frankthedm
First Post
The basic problem is if grapple negates too may powers and forms of attack, then the actual "grapple" should not happen until the victim is out of HP. Just as you don't get to break someone's neck without reducing their HP by a fatal amount, you should not get to negate a foe just by a lucky roll. If you do, then the ruleset sees far to much escalation.
You want rules to grab the wizard to negate his spells, he wants rules to summon a uncontrolled kamikaze energy burst to fling you away [not making this up, see epic spell Let Go Of Me ]
You want rules to grab the wizard to negate his spells, he wants rules to summon a uncontrolled kamikaze energy burst to fling you away [not making this up, see epic spell Let Go Of Me ]
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