podcast: 4th edition combat too long

[filthgrinder]

Everyone's got their eyes down on the character sheet, and a big free-for-all is the best you're likely to get.

I think thats a big part of it. They weren't playing with their normal group. They weren't playing with "their" characters, and they were just brought together to film the podcast. They were also probably nervous because of the camera, and the fact they knew they'd have all the fan boys on the internet nick-picking them to death about everything they did.

Also, it seems like it was filmed awhile ago, it probably took awhile to edit together, thus the delay.

Plus, they all got crappy rolls. If they had some more hits, they probably would have been able to start dropping some stuff. They basically got everything bloodied.

Also, we never got to see what the trap did.

 

[Felon]

They didn't all get crappy rolls. There were some 20's just like there were some 1's.

Like I said, it just seemed like the rakshasas and mind flayer had such good defenses that most of the players were only looking at 50/50 chances of success, if not worse.

With 3e, you'd have iterative attacks against weak-scaling AC's, so the first attack was taken for granted as a hit. In 4e, you only get one attack, and it can have a good chance of missing at any level. So, what do you get in a combat system where everyone gets lots of hit points, don't do lots of damage, and hits aren't exceeding misses by a generous margin? Answer: opponents grinding against each other a long time before someone drops.

That seems to me to be the flaw in the "epic battle" rationale I've read here in this thread. Those long battles won't be epic in scale, because players shoot their wad on their powers even in fairly routine battles. If they do the same in a drawn-out battle, then they'll be left with nothing with at-wills for a large part of the fight. I predict that in the next PHB we will see PC's get recharge rolls just like monsters do now.

 

[timbannock]

These are not novice players who are learning the game, these are game designers! I would be ashamed to show my face if I played that badly.

I'm not about to watch it again, but I thought most of the players were NOT game designers, but people from the Marketing department, editing department and...well...not the design department.

Though I believe all of them were playtesters, though, so I guess this argument can go either way.

But I do agree on one point: they played badly.

It'd be interesting to see a game with Mearls, Cordell, Wyatt, Collins, et al...you know, people like that. The REAL design team behind it. I betcha it would've looked very different.


P.S. Although there was a lack of description from the DM overall, I loved his characterizations. Funny, yes, but memorable for a "thrown together at the last moment, only for a podcast encounter" type thing.

 

[Kishin]

They didn't all get crappy rolls. There were some 20's just like there some 1's.

Like I said, it just seemed like the rakshasas and mind flayer had such good defenses that most of the players were only looking at 50/50 chances of success, if not worse.

With 3e, you'd have iterative attacks and AC's low enough that the first attack was taken for granted as a hit. In 4e, you only get one attack, and it can have a good chance of missing at any level.

I'm very much inclined to agree here. People were rolling 30+ and missing. Assuming 15th level characters with +6 or so in their primary stat, +7 from half level, and +3 weapons/implements, we're looking at misses on like, 16. That's only a 20% chance to hit. Those are very unfavorable odds.

Someone mentioned something about postgame analysis, so here's my two cents on the matter.

1) The most important part of that encounter, by far, was divide and conquer. As soon as it became apparent the Mind Flayer could juxtapose thralls in the way of attacks, there should have been a conscious effort to keep them as far from him as possible. (This might have happened had the Thunderwave the Fighter/Wizard used not missed, or his Tide of Iron). With two defenders and the aid of a controller, one should be able to keep the Minotaur and the two rakshasas occupied.

2) The rogue's strategy was the best thinking done in that entire encounter. That Mind Flayer needed to be locked down/denied as many actions as possible, if not focus fired down immediately. Enemy controllers are bad bad news, especially high level ones with AoEs and the ability to dominate party members. All the Minotaur and the Rakshasa could do were hit people and push them around.

3) FOCUS FIRE. This is 4E, and not only that, a 4E battle against high level elite monsters. You aren't soloing anything. Pick a threat, and pound it into the ground. There was a bit of this on the Mind Flayer, but not enough.

4) Do not blow your action points early on unless you can make a serious impact. Someone else already pointed this out in the thread, so I apologize for stealing their thunder. Knocking out the Mind Flayer was such a thing.

5) Don't roll 3 ones in a row.

Short form, in '4E is WoW!" terms: "Tank the adds off to the side, DPS boss."

 

[Felon]

I'm very much inclined to agree here. People were rolling 30+ and missing. Assuming 15th level characters with +6 or so in their primary stat, +7 from half level, and +3 weapons/implements, we're looking at misses on like, 16. That's only a 20% chance to hit. Those are very unfavorable odds.

Yeah, looks like 50/50 may be overly generous. From the warlock, we specifically get a mention of +18 to attack.

Here's what it looks like they were facing:
Mind Flayer Mastermind (lvl 18 elite controller): HP 324, AC 33, Frt & Ref 33, Wll 35,
Rakshasa Warrior x 2 (lvl 15 soldier): HP 142, AC 31, Frt 29, Ref & Wll 28
Savage Minotaur (lvl 16 brute): HP 190, AC 28, Frt 32, Ref 26, Wll 29

1) The most important part of that encounter, by far, was divide and conquer. As soon as it became apparent the Mind Flayer could juxtapose thralls in the way of attacks, there should have been a conscious effort to keep them as far from him as possible.

At the very least, press the attack once the flayer has used up his immediate reaction.

 

[Cirex]

I watched the video and well, I understand that playing with a game you are not familiar, with alien characters and under the pressure of camera and microphones can't be easy, so I applaud their effort.

Now, two personal highlights :

-Dave Noonan tried his best and I think his entushiasm was the best of the video.
-The unintentional comedy brought by Sara and her "what the hell am I doing here" faces.

Now, if it's a "new" game, with alien characters, such high level may be pushing it I'd say.

 

[Felon]

-The unintentional comedy brought by Sara and her "what the hell am I doing here" faces.

Think so? I've watched this a couple times now, and Sara actually seems to have her act together as well as anybody. She actually did knew most of her powers and did some defending.

In general, I feel compelled to retract my "zero grasp of tactics" remark. They had more than zero--just not a stellar night for them.

 

[Cirex]

Maybe it's her focussed face, but especially at the beginning she seemed to feel very uncomfortable about the whole situation.

 

[Felon]

Well, she did mention that her dragonborn was the character she played in her regular game.

But again, like everybody else there, she's not big on eye contact, which conveys discomfort.

 

[Palladion]

The fact that Sara Girard plays a paladin in a normal game means that she should know how to use divine challenge as her role. The fighter (forgot his name) is a designer, he even spoke about his role in combat, but in the aftermath, he said he did not even take any damage. Uh... defender!?! Those two points are probably what surprised and shocked me the most.

Overall, regardless if they were thrown together or how advanced players they were, this group of co-workers (and I think they probably get along normally or they would not have been asked to participate in the game session together) played as if they had never played 4e before or never played in a party before. D&D is a cooperative game, any edition, last time I checked.

(A bit too much sarcasm there, but I meant it as emphasis, not as an attack.)