D&D 5E (2014) Podcast on the current state of 5e

Celtavian, while I don't disagree with all of your points, stridently claiming Tony is WRONG when all of us are debating (?) with minimal facts and maximum supposition is a bit much. I don't agree with most of Tony's points either, but . . .

I am pretty sure, however, that more than a few folks who actually work in the industry would not completely agree with your take on WotC's "failure" and move to a new edition. Especially the part about WotC/Hasbro viewing Pathfinder as serious competition.

Wrong on the points I cited.

WotC sees Paizo as a serious competitor. They made the mistake of not doing so early on same as Microsoft did with Netscape and Internet browsers. It bit both of them hard. WotC let them do what they did with the 3E OGL because they thought, "Paizo is nothing. They'll take a tiny bit of the market. Most will come board with 4E because it's D&D. No one has challenged us in years." Paizo surprised WotC. Probably surprised the entire hobby with their success. How many people at the start thought Paizo could reach the size it is and take as much of the D&D market share as they did?

You don't look at a competitor that did what Paizo did and shrug. You study what they did, take what positives you can, and ensure a competitor can't do it again. Fortunately, D&D is big enough to recover. If Mearls and company don't view Pathfinder as a serious competitor to their business, that's bad management. I don't picture Mearls as a bad manager. He's not going to directly speak of the competition as that is not a productive use of the media. In house, it's definitely acknowledged. I doubt we see a war like the one we're seeing between Walmart and Amazon right now. It will be a different kind of competition that I will find interesting to watch. Now that WotC seems focused on rebuilding its customer base and has returned the game to its roots, I wonder if Paizo can sustain. I wonder if Paizo has sufficient money to withstand WotC taking back market share. It will be interesting to watch as 5E continues on.
 

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Wrong on the points I cited.

WotC sees Paizo as a serious competitor. They made the mistake of not doing so early on same as Microsoft did with Netscape and Internet browsers. It bit both of them hard. WotC let them do what they did with the 3E OGL because they thought, "Paizo is nothing. They'll take a tiny bit of the market. Most will come board with 4E because it's D&D. No one has challenged us in years." Paizo surprised WotC. Probably surprised the entire hobby with their success. How many people at the start thought Paizo could reach the size it is and take as much of the D&D market share as they did?

You don't look at a competitor that did what Paizo did and shrug. You study what they did, take what positives you can, and ensure a competitor can't do it again. Fortunately, D&D is big enough to recover. If Mearls and company don't view Pathfinder as a serious competitor to their business, that's bad management. I don't picture Mearls as a bad manager. He's not going to directly speak of the competition as that is not a productive use of the media. In house, it's definitely acknowledged. I doubt we see a war like the one we're seeing between Walmart and Amazon right now. It will be a different kind of competition that I will find interesting to watch. Now that WotC seems focused on rebuilding its customer base and has returned the game to its roots, I wonder if Paizo can sustain. I wonder if Paizo has sufficient money to withstand WotC taking back market share. It will be interesting to watch as 5E continues on.

Yes, Tony's WRONG, I'm WRONG, we're all WRONG if we disagree with your unassailable facts.

Wait a minute . . . where are your facts? Do you have some cites to back up your being so RIGHT when we are all so WRONG?

Is it just your incredible business acumen and insight? Rather than simple opinion based on few facts? Well, okay then, I suppose I'm WRONG.
 
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Yes, Tony's WRONG, I'm WRONG, we're all WRONG if we disagree with your unassailable facts.

Wait a minute . . . where are your facts? Do you have some cites to back up your being so RIGHT when we are all so WRONG?

Is it just your incredible business acumen and insight? Rather than simple opinion based on few facts? Well, okay then, I suppose I'm WRONG.

You and Tony are wrong in this instance. What of it? A reactionary bunch of statements doesn't change that. Why would someone be so offended because someone tells them they are wrong when they are dismissive of obvious events such as saying, "Paizo isn't viewed as a serious competitor." That's unbelievably foolish statement no business could afford to make. The fact that you're a fan allows you to make such a statement. But WotC can't make that statement. They are competing with Paizo for customers. Pathfinder is D&D. Everyone that played in the last ten years knows what it was based on.

Let me turn this around and you can assess for yourself. It's pretty easy to see. If you own a company that allows another company to build a game system off an old game system you owned that takes a sizeable chunk of your customers, is that a business problem? If you owned that business, what would you do? Explain to me in business terms how what Paizo did was a positive for Wizards of the Coast's D&D division? What is an acceptable loss of your customer base to a competing game system that directly took customers from you due to displeasure with the game system you released to replace the old game system? You always want as close to 100% adoption of your new game system as possible, right? If Paizo is the company that siphoned a sizeable chunk of that customer base preventing near 100% adoption, why would WotC not view them as a serious competitor? Explain that in business terms.

My business acumen does allow me to assess situations like these. Does it surprise you that someone in the gaming hobby would assess businesses as part of their other activities. I do a lot of investing. That means I study a lot of businesses and how they function. My education background is business. I study a lot of financial statements. I study how businesses take and sustain market share. Is it any different than say a person that studies history or science in their spare time or does it for a living?

I'm not going to say RPG/gaming companies are my specialty. They certainly aren't. Gaming companies are not the best investments. They require a lot of R&D expense to keep abreast of the competition. They are dependent upon subjective customer tastes. It is a highly competitive industry that is hard to dominate for long periods of time. Even if you do build a dominant position, some game from an unknown company can come out and unseat you as top dog and there's practically nothing you can do about it once customers have migrated to a new game adopting it as their favorite. I don't like the risk associated with investing in gaming companies. Maybe as quick hit investment aimed at making money off a monster grower like WoW or StarCraft, but not as a long-term investment.

Sorry you don't like talking business. I do. I'd love to see the internal business discussions that WotC had when Paizo started to take market share. That would interest someone like me that likes to study business. I would love some tell all book that took me into the business meeting rooms at WotC and Paizo to see what it was like when they were splitting the D&D customer base up. I would find that fascinating. Just as I would find the financial statements interesting to see what portion of revenue was siphoned off by Paizo. What effect it had on WotC's TTRPG division. What WotC has planed to recover it. Maybe someday someone will write that book. At the moment that information is not readily available. I would have sift Hasbro's financial statements pretty closely to glean anything of use. Since I'm not investing in Hasbro and don't plan to any time soon, I'd rather spend my free time looking over the financials of other companies.

This is an entertaining discussion of business principles and how they apply to the TTRPG industry. I find it odd that some would claim that Paizo didn't take a significant enough market share from WotC to cause them to both view Paizo as a serious competitor and look to change their game to recover market share. To someone like me it is glaringly obvious. You just never let someone take your market share. It's even more embarrassing that they did it with an older version of your game. If I had worked at WotC during that time period, I would have been looking for another job as soon as the writing was on the wall. It is a completely unacceptable concatenation of circumstances that led to the existence and success of Paizo from a business perspective.

I will leave it at that since I'm offending your sensibilities. You think what you want to think. But I intend to look at it through the lense of a business person studying a business problem: two companies competing for a splintered market.
 


Wrong on the points I cited.

WotC sees Paizo as a serious competitor.

According to pretty much every person who works at WOTC who has spoken on the topic - they do not. They view their competition as the wider entertainment market, and quite like Paizo as Paizo promotes the niche market of RPGs which is healthy for D&D. Indeed, apparently a lot of people buy both Paizo products and WOTC products and they cross-pollinate - it's the people who drift away to non-RPG entertainment products that are the true competition. Paizo employees have said similar things. The same group of freelancers now seem to be working for both companies. The only people I've ever seen stress this idea that they view each other as the competition - is fans on message boards.

Now maybe what you're really thinking is they SHOULD view each other as competition, and that the reality is they are in fact competing. But - what you're saying differs from that. You're saying their current view is that they see each other as competition, even though they say they don't see each other that way. So are you saying all these people, at both companies, are just lying? Or do you mean to say they should view each other that way, even if they don't currently view each other that way?
 
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According to pretty much every person who works at WOTC who has spoken on the topic - they do not. They view their competition as the wider entertainment market, and quite like Paizo as Paizo promotes the niche market of RPGs which is healthy for D&D. Indeed, apparently a lot of people buy both Paizo products and WOTC products and they cross-pollinate - it's the people who drift away to non-RPG entertainment products that are the true competition. Paizo employees have said similar things. The same group of freelancers now seem to be working for both companies. The only people I've ever seen stress this idea that they view each other as the competition - is fans on message boards.

Citations please?
 

What is not a huge amount of revenue to you?
Say you make a 100,000 doing whatever it is you do. An opportunity comes along to make another $500 by working a minimum-wage job, which, BTW, it would cost you 1000 to commute to.

That's the kind of opportunity Hasbro is looking at when it comes to making any sort of effort to gain market share in TTRPGs.


A business cares about every revenue stream unless something is a complementary product or a loss leader. D&D is not a loss leader.
At this point it's a potential loss leader, in that it's a property they want to maintain so that it can be used to launch something in a larger, more profitable market. It's probably not operating at a loss, though, since costs must be really low with only two developers...

On the forums the edition war was words. Between WotC and Paizo it was measured in dollars and cents.
There was never a WotC-Paizo war. Certain of their fans acted like there was, and they reaped the benefit of those wallet-votes, but it was never a zero-sum game. The success or failure of D&D at the time rode on it bringing in huge numbers of new players and selling virtually all of them DDI, even though DDI was a shadow of what had been promised. It never came close to that - the few established fans who both bought pathfinder, and pointedly wouldn't touch D&D products didn't make a difference to that failure.



Yet that hasn't happened since D&D took the dominant position in the TTRPG market.
Actually, D&D had some very close competetion from WWGS (Storyteller/WoD) in the late 90s. Also, not coincidentally, when D&D was not really showing up to the party because TSR had failed.


How much of their previous market did they recover? That is the question. D&D used to be number one by quite a margin.
No knowing that - the data just aren't available. But it's also not important. D&D wasn't going to break out by dominating a tiny market a little more than it already dominated it, only by building a much larger market. They were willing to sacrifice existing customers to create a better, more accessible game that had a shot at doing that, it just didn't pay off.

Now D&D is back to it's old formula and dominating the market again. All it had to do was put out a familiar core-3 book set.

Miniscule compared to the other divisions?
Yes. D&D probably makes millions in revenue, maybe even more than 10 mil (more than half the guestimated TTRPG industry). Top CCGs make over 100 mil, and WotC, IIRC, has more than one of those. Hasbro total revenues are over 4 billion. So, yes, D&D represents tenths of a percent to Hasbro.

This is a strange time. D&D is actually getting more publicity than I've seen in the past. It has made it on major TV shows like Community and The Big Bang Theory. They have made some movies about gamer culture. The gaming subculture is getting more publicity than I've seen in my entire life. It's never been cooler to be a comic book reading, gaming nerd. How to take advantage of that economically? That is the question. I'm wondering at this point if it can take advantage of the increased popularity and publicity associated with nerd culture.
It's really been going on for a while now. A 3.0 PH made an appearance on a national TV commercial (for a washing machine, I think it was - the theme was 'smart meets beautiful,' and a D&D-playing science nerd was the 'smart'). LotR movies hit the mainstream almost 15 years ago. Nerd chic has been around a while, it may well run it's course before too long. Yet, while console games and MMOs and comic book movies have cashed in big time on that trend, TTRPGs, long thought of as being 'held back' by the nerd association have languished. Even with 3.0 going back to the dungeon and the OGL goosing the otherwise niche industry.

Traditional D&D didn't get on the nerd chic bandwagon, a very ambitious well-supported non-traditional D&D couldn't make the leap, either, and now D&D is back to a very traditional form and has minimal in-house resources.

Splitting their market did not help with this endeavor. I still wonder why they chose to take a game with a dominant market share in the TTRPG market into a direction that would splinter their customer base.
It's pretty clear, really, to grow beyond that limited market. CCGs and MMOs were raking in orders of magnitude more revenue than TTRPGs, even though MMOs were derivative of TTRPGs, and CCGs used the same distribution channels, and there was tremendous crossover among players of the three. D&D had changed relatively little in the preceding 33 years, so it must have seemed like a good idea to change it substantially, even at the cost of alienating some existing fans, in the hopes of capturing a larger portion of the much larger fanbases represented by MMOs, CRPGs, CCGs, and other mainstreamed nerd-culture franchises, and getting them onto a subscription service. They succeeded in making a much more accessible, modern, technically superior game that did seem (IMHX) to retain new payers better than TTRPGs had in the past, they succeeded in making it mesh well with on-line tools. They also failed to deliver those tools, and failed to promote the game enough to get a large number of new players trying it, to be retained, at all.

The failure that mattered was the failure to grow far beyond the size of the TTRPG market, not the failure to increase dominance within that market.

Mearls seems to have the game back on track. He is definitely using metrics to keep it on track. I wonder why D&D didn't use a similar approach in the past. Then again the tools Mearls is using may not have been in place at the time. I know tools for business metrics have substantially improved over the years and thereby the results obtained by their use.
I'm sure solid metrics have been available throughout the Hasbro years, and informed the 3.5, 4e, Essentials, and 5e rev-rolls.

Yet, in a sense, the 3.0 rev-roll, conceived by the old WotC crew who were D&D fans, and did have full decision-making powers, was arguably the most successful from our PoV. It didn't grow the hobby by leaps and bounds, but it did revitalize it, and set up the OGL, which essentially guarantees that D&D-ish games can always be published, cynical business decisions notwithstanding.
 
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WotC sees Paizo as a serious competitor. They made the mistake of not doing so early on same as Microsoft did with Netscape and Internet browsers. It bit both of them hard. WotC let them do what they did with the 3E OGL because they thought, "Paizo is nothing. They'll take a tiny bit of the market. Most will come board with 4E because it's D&D. No one has challenged us in years." Paizo surprised WotC. Probably surprised the entire hobby with their success. How many people at the start thought Paizo could reach the size it is and take as much of the D&D market share as they did?
Here's the thing, Dungeons & Dragons is NOT Wizards of the Coast. D&D =/= WotC. Magic the Gathering is WotC. MtG makes an order of magnitude more money than D&D. If you take all the profits from D&D an throw them in a pile for a full decade, that's how much Magic makes in a slow year. There are over a 500 people who work at WotC and a dozen or so work on D&D. It's less than 4% of the staff of the company and less than 1% of the revenue.

Even then, Paizo didn't get close to "beating" D&D. Not really. It took five years for Pathfinder to sell as many Core Rulebooks as 3.0 did in it's first month. And 4e (and 5e) sold more than 3e. Pathfinder was selling better as much because people were leaving D&D as because people were going to Pathfinder. For every fan that went to Pathfinder, one probably just went back to 3.5 or another system. They just left the market.

Paizo is NOTHING to WotC.

The Netscape analogy might actually be apt. It's not Google vs Microsoft where a company is challenging MS at mobile devices, searching, a browser, an O/S, and more. Instead, it's a small company challenging MS at some small vestigial part of their product that doesn't really make much money.
 

Paizo is NOTHING to WotC.

You actually don't know that so please don't pretend like you do.

Also, Paizo is moving into other territories such as card games, toys, dice, MMO's etc.... We don't know where Paizo is liable to go so saying that WotC doesn't even acknowledge Paizo is just plain silliness.
 

You actually don't know that so please don't pretend like you do.

Also, Paizo is moving into other territories such as card games, toys, dice, MMO's etc.... We don't know where Paizo is liable to go so saying that WotC doesn't even acknowledge Paizo is just plain silliness.
Paizo's card game is non-competitive and non-collectible and entirely a different market than MtG. WotC likely doesn't care.
Paizo's toys and dice are licensed products being done by other companies. And none of them compete with WotC's interests.
Paizo's MMO is very different and super niche, and has no impact on WotC's business, as they're not an MMO company.

Paizo is a minor competitor to a small, vestigial part of WotC.

Magic the Gathering is massive. How massive? It makes the rest of the Hasbro game division look good. It does better than big names like Monopoly, Clue, Hungry, Hungry, Hippos, and so many more. Paizo would have to make 200x as much money to even get close to MtG.
Even IF Pathfinder managed to somehow crush the D&D TRPG (which won't happen) the accountants at WotC likely wouldn't notice. The money the D&D TRPG brings into the company is pretty much a rounding error.

Magic the Gathering is freakin' Galactus and Pathfinder is Spider-man. It's just not worth noticing.
 

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