Point Blank Shot and Far Shot

[Artoomis]

This is from the unreleased part of the SRD, and it contradicts the PHB, which describes Charge as a "special" standard action.

The PHB takes precedence over the SRD.

Actually, that section of the SRD has been released. See the quoted text below for the actual, released text, where the AoO entry was changed to "No."

And yes, it does contradict the PHB, sort of. The effect of a Charge being a "Special" standard action is virtually the same as making it a full-round action.

Why do I say that? Because to charge you MUST move at least 10' Once you moved at least 10', you used your movement + standard action, leaving with nothing else to do. Effectively the same as a full-round action. Especially since the Charge is a special standard action, so that you cannot assume that it follows the rules of standard actions at all.

From the released portion of the SRD:

Standard Action: A standard action allows a character to do something and move that character's indicated speed during a combat round. A character can move before or after performing the activity of the action.

Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all a character's effort during a round. The only movement a character can take during a full- round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. A character can also perform free actions. Some full-round actions do not allow a 5-foot step.

Charge [Full][AoO: No]
Description: The character must move before attacking, not after. The character must move at least 10 feet and may move up to double base speed. All movement must be in a straight line, with no backing up allowed. The charge stops as soon as the character threatens the target. A character can't run past the target and attack from another direction.
After moving, the character may make a single melee attack or a bull rush. The character gets a +2 bonus on the attack roll. The character also suffers a -2 penalty to AC for 1 round.
A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
A target can ready certain piercing weapons, setting them to receive charges by using the ready action against receiving a charge. A weapon of this type deals double damage if the readied attack is successful.

When you read through the Charge action, you see that it meets all of the defintion of a Full-Round Action, if you note that the movement is part of the Charge action.

It's a moot point, I think, there is a pretty clear defintion of charge and it includes moving up to double your meovement and making an attack, no 90' move allowed as some would like.

I summary, you can think of it two ways:

1. Charge is a special standard action. In addition to the attack (with appropriate modifiers), the move you make with it must be at least 10' and can be up to double you move. In other words, the move is not really part of the charge action, the move is seperate from the standard action "charge, but has special rules to the move because you are charging.

It's "special" because the move you make with the standard action "charge" is not optional and has "special" rules for the move.

2. Charge is a FRA. The move you make is part of the charge. (A much neater way of think about it, really. )

 

[Negative Zero]

wow! way to hijack a thread! you guys are awesome! if i may be permitted to get back on topic for a moment ... why would learning how to shoot at great distances be of any benefit to the technique of shooting targets at close range? they're two different techniques that don't really intersect ... no?

 

[S'mon]

Re: Nope

"Move-Equivalent Action: Move-equivalent actions take the place of movement in a standard action or take the place of an entire partial action. The combatant can normally also take a 5 foot step.

Standard Action: A standard action allows a combatant to do something and move a combatant's indicated speed during a combat round. A combatant can move before or after performing the activity of the action."

You can't do both a M-E action AND a standard action in one round without being hasted. Charge is a standard action and that's ALL you can do in one round. You move UP TO double your speed and attack once. And that's it. You don't have an additional move-equivalent action left to move your speed unless you are hasted. If you have been playing this way, you are giving all of your players haste essentially. This is quite clear from the rules I quoted above.

"You can't do a move equivalent action and a standard action in one round"?! That's the wholepoint of ME actions - that they can be combined with standard actions.

BTW if charge didn't allow a ME action there would be no reason to describe it as a standard action rather than a full round action - it would be a full round action.

I have no problem with people MAKING charge a full round action, you may think it's overpowered as described, but it is NOT described as such in the PHB.

 

[S'mon]

Re: Re: Nope

I have no problem with people MAKING charge a full round action, you may think it's overpowered as described, but it is NOT described as such in the PHB.

Also if WoTC want to change the description of charge in the SRD to make it a full-round action, fair enough. The result is that you can't eg draw a weapon (move--equivalent action) and charge in the same round, and obviously it reduces the maximum distance moved in a round to x2 base speed. None of this changes the fact that the PHB describes charge as a standard action not a full-round action.

 

[IceBear]

I can see why you think you would be allowed to move and then charge, but a charge is a SPECIAL standard action. It allows you to move twice your speed and attack in one round - something you normally can't do. To do what you allow is to allow you to move triple your speed and attack. That's not what the charging rule was intended to do.

On page 121 of the PHB, it describes a standard action as allowing you to do something and move your speed in a combat round. What's special about charge is that it's a standard action that allows you to move TWICE your speed in a combat round (that's why it's a SPECIAL STANDARD ACTION).

Actually moving isn't a move-equivalent action (look at the table of move-equivalent actions and you don't see "move" as an action), it's PART of the standard action. A move-equivalent action takes the place of movement in a standard action or an entire partial action (also on page 121 of the PHB). So, you don't get to move and take a standard action - your standard action is moving and taking an action. That's the fundamental flaw in your premise that you can move and charge in the same round - you declare the standard action of charging and get to move upto twice your speed in a round an attack instead of declaring an attack action which only allows you to move your speed and attack.

Again, move equivalent actions aren't COMBINED with standard actions, they just take the place of movement in the standard action.

IceBear

 

[jontherev]

Re: Re: Nope

"You can't do a move equivalent action and a standard action in one round"?! That's the wholepoint of ME actions - that they can be combined with standard actions.

BTW if charge didn't allow a ME action there would be no reason to describe it as a standard action rather than a full round action - it would be a full round action.

I have no problem with people MAKING charge a full round action, you may think it's overpowered as described, but it is NOT described as such in the PHB.

Please carefully read the rules I quoted, and Icebear's last post. You are not playing 3E combat correctly if you are allowing BOTH a move-equivalent AND a standard action in the same round. The move-equivalent action (or MOVE) takes place INSIDE the standard action. I don't know how to be more clear on this. If you still don't understand the rules or our explanations, start another thread and you will see more people tell you the same thing I and Icebear have said multiple times.

 

[IceBear]

Basically, in a round you can take one standard action (a Full Round Action is a special standard action that reduces your movement for the round to 5ft).

A rough breakdown of a standard action is:

move + partial action

A standard action isn't just an attack, it's the movement plus the attack. This is where you're making the mistake. You are allowing move + standard action.

IceBear

 

[jontherev]

wow! way to hijack a thread! you guys are awesome! if i may be permitted to get back on topic for a moment ... why would learning how to shoot at great distances be of any benefit to the technique of shooting targets at close range? they're two different techniques that don't really intersect ... no?

I agree. It doesn't make sense. Look at it this way. Let's say you take far shot and point blank shot. If you allow far shot to effect the 30' range of pbs, which would be a house rule btw, you suddenly make thrown weapons MORE accurate than projectile weapons! Example, a shortspear would work w/pbs out to 60', while a xbow only works out to 45'. That is absurdly illogical. Projectile weapons have longer ranges than thrown weapons for a reason...because they are more accurate.

As for sneak attacks, as has been pointed out already I think, there is a feat that does this already. If your DM allows it (mine does not), take that instead of trying to squeeze more power out of an existing feat.

 

[S'mon]

I can see why you think you would be allowed to move and then charge, but a charge is a SPECIAL standard action. It allows you to move twice your speed and attack in one round - something you normally can't do. To do what you allow is to allow you to move triple your speed and attack. That's not what the charging rule was intended to do.

On page 121 of the PHB, it describes a standard action as allowing you to do something and move your speed in a combat round. What's special about charge is that it's a standard action that allows you to move TWICE your speed in a combat round (that's why it's a SPECIAL STANDARD ACTION).

Actually moving isn't a move-equivalent action (look at the table of move-equivalent actions and you don't see "move" as an action), it's PART of the standard action. A move-equivalent action takes the place of movement in a standard action or an entire partial action (also on page 121 of the PHB). So, you don't get to move and take a standard action - your standard action is moving and taking an action. That's the fundamental flaw in your premise that you can move and charge in the same round - you declare the standard action of charging and get to move upto twice your speed in a round an attack instead of declaring an attack action which only allows you to move your speed and attack.

Again, move equivalent actions aren't COMBINED with standard actions, they just take the place of movement in the standard action.

IceBear

OK, I sit corrected. This means that Charge cannot be a full-round action because it involves movement? I'm starting to think that 3e's definitions of standard and full round actions don't make much sense.

 

[IceBear]

There isn't any reason to be confused. Charging is a standard action (as per the PHB and the released SRD).

A standard action allows you to move your base movement and take an action.

A full round action limits you to only 5ft movement to perform your action.

A charge is a special standard action that allows you to move twice your
base movement and attack.

IceBear