Point Buy Systems

[Tinker Gnome]

Well, I bought the Big Eyes, Small Mouth 1st Edition PDF a little while ago and it is a point buy system. I have been fiddling around with it a little bit. This is my first time playing around with a point buy system. I have found it very easy to make one stat very high. Or to max out one ability(Like Acrobatics) at character creation. I can see how people say point buy leads to a lot of Min/Maxing. What is your experience with point buy systems?

 

[Aus_Snow]

In my experience, the Guardians of Order RPG manifesto holds true, as ever. And say, didn't they publish at least one the BESM iterations?

That is to say:

"Min/maxing and munchkinism aren't problems with the game; they're problems with the player."

 

[Lord Mhoram]

As a Player and GM of HERO for 24 years, I will say that is exactly right.

The point buy systems try and balance things by points (so 10 pts here is roughly equal to 10 pts there), but specific character balance is much more in the hands of the GM than any level based design. It allows for much greater flexibility (I've almost never been able to play any character I envision using Hero), but that flexibility means that the GM has to keep an eye on character design.

Unlike D&D where there is the whole "It's in the RAW/Book legal so I can play it" point based systems have to have much more in the way of GM control - incredibly powerful character can be build, as can incredibly inefficient ones. The GM has to say "Nope that doesn't fit my world" or somesuch. The player has to respect the GM's opinion there - because of the flexibility the GM is the final arbiter of character design.

It is very easy to minmax on a point buy system. It's also easy for the GM to say "That is just silly, make a normal character instead"... or "try this one, but pull down his dex and damage, and maybe put it here...." This is an approach shift from level based design where the balance is more in the classes and levels than in the hands of the GM.

 

[Betote]

Point buy systems, IMO, work better when the players don't know the rules very well. No, really. When they tell you "I want to do X, how much does it cost?", instead of "Hey, I got X ability, on page XX, taking up Y and Z disadvantages, on page XXX", things tend to go way smoother.

 

[jdrakeh]

IAnd say, didn't they publish at least one the BESM iterations?

They published all versions of BESM, save for the last one (which they designed and White Wolf published).

 

[Aus_Snow]

They published all versions of BESM, save for the last one (which they designed and White Wolf published).

Ah, OK. I've never owned any of them, not even the d20 take on it, so I was just going on the limited info I've heard here and there.

Was the White Wolf one, um, a WW one, because GoO had already gone under at that stage?

 

[Greg K]

I have played and run Hero System and GURPS and am now running Mutants and Masterminds. As mentioned above, you need responsible/mature players and a GM that his willing to tell a player, "No!" if they try to game the system, break genre, etc.

As a GM, you should have a good idea of the type of genre, setting and game you want to run. Many point systems give you an idea of how good a stat or skill is. You can use this to set limits as approriate to the campaign you are running.

Also, have the players come up with concepts and backgrounds and then build the character. If a stat or skill level is exceedingly high, ask them about their character and why the stat /skill is so high. If you think the player is trying to game the system, or the level of the stat/skill is inappropriate tell them what you are willing to accept and to rework the character. Similiarly, if a character seems to be underpowered or is missing something important for their concept, you can also offer suggestions.

 

[jdrakeh]

What is your experience with point buy systems?

Pretty positive, though I've been lucky and haven't played with many people prone to abuse their knowledge of such systems to create ubermenschen PCs designed to hog the spotlight or rain on everybody else's parade. Those people are out there, though.

In many regards, games like D&D that place very strict restraints on character power capacity via mechanics such as levels and classes (both of which, in D&D, specifically spell out limits on feats, skill points, combat effectiveness, etc) are designed to discourage such unsporting play.

Point buy systems, on the other hand, are designed to be as open as possible with the (IMHO) naive assumption that all players are above being annoying, socially retarded, attention whores. That said, in point buy systems, the GM is usually allowed to arbitrarily place mechanical limits on power as he or she sees fit.

As others have suggested, what kind of system you want to use will depend largely on the people you are playing with and whether or not you can trust them to not act like jerks. Frex, I think that point buy systems provide mechanical flexibility and accommodate breadth of character concept better than class/level systems, but all of the flexibility in the world is worthless if your players exist only to abuse it.

 

[jdrakeh]

Was the White Wolf one, um, a WW one, because GoO had already gone under at that stage?

White Wolf published it but, as I mentioned, GOO did most (if not all) of the writing and design.

 

[Aus_Snow]

White Wolf published it but, as I mentioned, GOO did most (if not all) of the writing and design.

I guess what I meant to ask was whether GoO gave it to White Wolf while they were themselves still up and running (perhaps because WW might have better printing, distribution or whatever capabilities), or they'd done most or all of the work, but died as a company, at which point White Wolf took it on and published it instead. Or something like that. Sorry, it's become a bit of a threadjack, almost. Wasn't meaning it to be.